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Sallie Q
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2012 03:10 |
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Phosphorous would be the deficiency to look for in the kids your lecturer is talking about and some other groups.
Calcium could be deficient in some places where breastfeeding is not encouraged or stopped before the infant becomes a toddler (or where a lot of coffee is consumed, Mums can not successfully breast feed without cutting down on caffeine).
danhaych wrote: ............. I'm not saying that my lecturers are lying just that obviously wide spread knowledge of what you talk about doesn't exist yet if you know what I mean.
"if you know what I mean" ROTFL
then get up and cry 
Professionals at least are beginning to talk about evidence based medicine.
Unfortunately most of them do not really have time or inclination to look for and examine 'authoritative' studies*. .
Some doctors fit the above, some tell "lil white lies" .....
.....because worry contributes 20% or more to decline in health; and I think we all agree on that.
*there are some MPers who follow research articles and post links on MPSS for review here
A good reason for you to put in a membership application as soon as your current project is done
http://www.curemyth1.org/forum7/3902.html
Admin is now accepting applications from those who are not yet on Olmesartan, but are in preparation for MP'
PS
ROTFL = roll on the floor laughing
Last edited on Tue Sep 25th, 2012 03:48 by Sallie Q
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Cynthia Schnitz
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2012 03:21 |
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Dan, please don't use slang on these forums. We are a very world wide group, and many readers are not native English speakers (or Aussie speakers). I have no idea what you are referring to as "slip, slop, slap".
You are being told what your instructors firmly believe. But if you were to actually check out all the studies of rickets and Calcium, the researchers never even for a moment consider testing the calcium without vit D automatically being included because they never consider one would not need vit D to be used in conjunction with Calcium. You state a situation of increasing rickets and osteoporosis. Is it? And do we automatically assume that all these people are getting more calcium in their diets than their forbearer's and less vitamin D ( ), even tho we know that there has been an enormous shift to soda pop and other non-milk drinks.
We, here, have a big long list of things that could explain increasing levels of chronic and auto immune diseases. And they certainly don't include people drinking more D free milk and getting less vitamin D in their lives. However, please start to read the MPKB. You will get the education you need there.
Cynthia
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MP start 10/08 (no breaks) | Spondylitis 97, early Diverticulosis 98, early AMD 08, Calcium anomaly 95, TypeII Diabetes(?) 02 | 25D=10.1ng/ml 12/12, (preMP 125D/25D=47/43) | My progress
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danhaych
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2012 03:27 |
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"if you know what I mean" ROTFL
then get up and cry
I'm not sure what you meant by this. Im jsut saying that what you talk about here is probably not used in lectures yet because they are unaware of Trevors work, which is why I am so interested in trying to understand this to see if its worth doing my assignment on this information to spark the interest of my lecturers. They were very confused when I mentioned that according to the MP vitamin D supplementation could be contributing to the diseases instead of helping the body cure the disease.
But to do my assignment I need to back up the claim "25D deactivates the VDR" if I can find Trevors reasoning behind this it should be easy from there.
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danhaych
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2012 03:40 |
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Cynthia Schnitz wrote:
Dan, please don't use slang on these forums. We are a very world wide group, and many readers are not native English speakers (or Aussie speakers). I have no idea what you are referring to as "slip, slop, slap".
Cynthia
Oops sorry, in Australia a few years ago there a huge campaign (still is) encouraging school kids to "slip on a shirt, slop on some sunscreen and slap on a hat" in order to prevent skin cancer.
In Australia the medical establishment and tv strongly advertise to us to consume vast amounts of dairy products because the high calcium in it will prevent osteoporosis, forgetting that vitamin D has a mechanism involved that should be considered. Now that that info is apparent we are gradually seeing dairy products being fortified with vitamin D.
See over here we seem to be behind the rest of the world in quite a few areas, its sad really.
Cynthia Schnitz wrote:
You state a situation of increasing rickets and osteoporosis. Is it?
We are told this to be so in lectures. I try to research as much as I can of what I am taught but there is so much information I cant possibly check up on everything they teach us.
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Sallie Q
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2012 03:41 |
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danhaych wrote: ............. an increase in the number of children showing signs of rickets DESPITE the high intake of "dairy" products......... How do they measure high intake of dairy products?
When I was at school the government delivered free milk to school children.
It arrived warm and kids often poured it down the drain.
Not much sugar used in my house, little or no supplementation to children
Mothers can report giving cheese sandwiches frequently.
Kids at my younger childrens' school often binned their packed lunch and went across the street to shop for themselves.
At the school which thankfully had no access to shops, I noticed that child, my eldest daughter, both grew up eating fresh salad as a matter of course and never needed dental treatment 
Her tonsils were always swollen, but her doctor did not rip them out, which helps, no doubt.
Her 2 children are healthy and successful young adults.
The unfortunate experience of many is a younger generation less healthy than their auto-immune affected parents and that in spite of 'vitamin' D being added into so many products we must work hard to avoid it.
Check out our Aussie Dr Fiona (forget surname) from western Australia, researching health in the children which followed the health conscious generation.... there are 'puzzling' results
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danhaych
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2012 03:50 |
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Sallie Q wrote:
How do they measure high intake of dairy products?
you mean the lecturers in my studies? They don't have a way of measuring it. Its their opinion, and the opinion of so many other people when you search the topic, that consumption of dairy should be kept absolute minimum, that adequate calcium can come from plenty of leafy green vegetables, and by reducing dairy, and ensuring a safe intake of protein and reduced sugar and processed foods will result in the body drawing less calcium from bones to neutralise the acidic environment caused from the consumption of all the above listed foods, and in so doing reduce the risks of osteoporosis, rickets and a plethora of other diseases that are caused by an acidic environment in the body.
But we are getting off topic a little here lol I need to get back to focussing on this VDR topic. But whether rickets and osteoporosis is increasing world wide or just Australia or even at all, I can only go by what my lecturers say, I guess it's just another subject I have to add to my list of things that I need to research more at a later date.
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Sallie Q
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2012 04:16 |
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**** Professor Fiona Stanley
http://www.australianoftheyear.org.au/pages/page61.asp
"It is her research interests that have formed the basis of her advocacy for Australia's children.
In 2002, she was appointed the Chief Executive Officer of the new Australian Research Alliance for Children and Youth.
Her professional focus stems from an alarming deterioration in key health indicators for children."
my emphasis
Sallie
sorry, thought your lecturers were saying kids were deficient in Ca and vitamin D and so should be drinking more milk;
time wasting mistake
"reduced sugar", "safe protein", "lots of vegetables"
perfect
and avoid sunlight the way our incredibly healthy Australian grandparents did
I used to have a photo of my aunts in their long sleeved ankle length tennis gear complete with beautiful broad-brimmed hats
No electricity to do half their work, still had time and energy to play
no vitamin supplements, no CFS 
PS dairy is not "poor in vitamin D"
D is in the creamy part
Last edited on Tue Sep 25th, 2012 04:41 by Sallie Q
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danhaych
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2012 04:43 |
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Sallie Q wrote:
sorry, thought your lecturers were saying kids were deficient in Ca and vitamin D and so should be drinking more milk;
well calcium deficency NO... but D deficiency possibly, maybe deficiency is the wrong to word to use with VD, they advocate the practice of spending 5-10 minutes 3 or 4 days a week exposing skin to the sun to generate all the vitamin D the body needs. They are aware of the vitamin D/immune system relationship but are puzzled when I said supplementing with D and sun exposure (according to the MP) is contributing to disease.
Sallie Q wrote:
and avoid sunlight the way our incredibly healthy Australian grandparents did
I used to have a photo of my aunts in their long sleeved ankle length tennis gear complete with beautiful broad-brimmed hats
No electricity to do half their work, still had time and energy to play
no vitamin supplements, no CFS
It would be said by my lecturers that their health was the result of healthy eating, less processed food available at that time, not because they shield themselves from the sun.
Again this is why Trevors research is so interesting to me, if there is indeed inactivation of VDR from 25D then I need to make more people aware of it through this assignment but so far this is the only area where it says that claim http://bacteriality.com/about-the-mp/ but I cannot reference a blog page, I will lose marks, I am reading everything you are linking me to SLOWLY but am not finding the info I need.
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danhaych
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2012 05:24 |
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This is the quote from the bacterialtiy blog:
Recent molecular modeling research (which has been confirmed by a large amount of clinical data) has shown that levels of 25-D over 20 ng/ml can bind and inactivate the VDR, which subsequently shuts down the innate immune system.
large amount of clinical data
This is what I need to find, the clinical data that apparently exists that I am unable to find yet.
Am I going about this all wrong? Is it the bacteria thats the problem, not 25D? In the absence of the bacteria biofilm thing, is there no issue with VDR inactivation by 25D? I have read over and over again from so many studies tha 1,25D has been shown to activate the VDR but absolutely nothing about 25D inactivating the VDR.Last edited on Tue Sep 25th, 2012 06:11 by danhaych
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Sallie Q
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2012 07:57 |
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Dan
large amount of clinical data
This is what I need to find, the clinical data that apparently exists that I am unable to find yet.
more research is needed and more accessible research, but remember:
the whole MPSS is a research project
run by Prof. Marshall and a handful of not particularly healthy volunteers (Trevor himself, Amy and Paul are going very well indeed. Many others behind the scenes from your point of view are still convalescing, and also reclaiming their jobs, families and social networks after decades of illness and decline only recently reversed.)
look at it this way
there is the huge amount of data accumulating in the MPSS which supports the Marshall hypothesis that any 'vitamin' D external to normal food will tend to make a sick person (especially if there is multiple diagnoses, 'auto-immune' diagnosis, sarcoidosis or Sx which fit no diagnosis) much sicker, including alarm over standard medical practise which makes patient feel better and allows disease process to become entrenched.
Some external (e.g. NIH) studies also support the hypothesis
long term studies that show patients taking vitamin D get more 'flu, have worse outcomes in breast cancer,
a few more, not many (but not many studies are long term studies) .
Is it the bacteria thats the problem, not 25D?
microbial communties including CWD bacteria, pollution, anything else that depresses immunity is the problem
25 D is the key to the solution
In the absence of the bacteria biofilm thing, is there no issue with VDR inactivation by 25D?
welll in the absence of the depressed immunity that is the problem, there is no issue with moderate sun exposure as espoused by your lecturers.
MPers would contend that such exposure is not necessary for body cells to make necessary D supplies, otherwise would agree, and many of them are getting as much or more exposure in the course of earning a living.
Since the clinical data, (excepting an unknown to me amount of doctors' own records including those kept by my own doctor, the Canadian doctor first to use the protocol on his patients and himself, clinical records of many other doctors not made public for personal caution/ bureaucratic threat)
is mostly on the MPStudy Site,
you may as well apply right now for admission, someone may be able to expedite membership/access
I have sent you a personal message - see top RHS of page
Last edited on Tue Sep 25th, 2012 08:01 by Sallie Q
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Sallie Q
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2012 08:11 |
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danhaych wrote [re my aunts and grandparents]...........
It would be said by my lecturers that their health was the result of healthy eating, less processed food available at that time, not because they shield themselves from the sun.
......................
healthy eating in some ways, but no refrigeration, and they did eat meat,
eggs were stored away in some process I have helped with, but forgotten.
A quite extraordinary amount of salt was eaten in home bottled vegetables
ditto sugar in home bottled fruits and home made jams.
Sugar and salt are now reputed to be quite dangerous in the amounts our ancestors used
Sallie
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Cynthia Schnitz
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2012 18:28 |
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Dan, have you read the transcript or watched the video I referenced above? That is where the data of molecular modeling that Dr. Marshall did was first presented. It may also be in some of his papers, and I'll look for that.
Yes, 25D does dock with the VDRs and prevent 1,25D from docking, but the biggest problem is not the 25D, it is bacterial ligands blocking the VDRs. This has been going on since the beginning of evolution of higher animals. Bacteria and other microbiota have evolved with us. So, just getting the 25D down helps, but is not enough.
As far as clinical data, it is all self reported data here on the Study Site. I can personally tell you that I can probably pin point to the day when my 25D fell below the roughly 12 ng/mL level that allows better activation of the VDRs, as that is when my IP (immuno pathology) picked up considerably. But this may not be what your teachers would accept.
I personally don't think you are going to make any progress what so ever trying to 'inform' your instructors of the 'truth' about the VDRs. Just something that many of us have had to face in trying to inform the world. Fact is they just aren't ready for it. Maybe when the genomic data comes rolling in that convinces doctors and researchers that the body is NOT a sterile compartment, there will be people willing to rethink vit D, but until then, you are probably heading for a poor grade, a big argument, total disbelief, and a big disappointment for you.
Better to just find out the truth for yourself, reap the benefits for yourself, and influence those around you that there is something worth looking into when they see what progress you have made. But this takes years, and you aren't going to really have the ammunition to convince anyone until that point, or until other researchers provide corroborating information.
Cynthia
____________________
MP start 10/08 (no breaks) | Spondylitis 97, early Diverticulosis 98, early AMD 08, Calcium anomaly 95, TypeII Diabetes(?) 02 | 25D=10.1ng/ml 12/12, (preMP 125D/25D=47/43) | My progress
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Cynthia Schnitz
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Posted: Tue Sep 25th, 2012 18:49 |
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One of your other questions about biofilms. One normally thinks of biofilms as existing between cells, but the biggest problem is the bacteria inside cells. These are generally not in biofilms as one would think of, like other biofilms, but are bacteria that have dropped their cell walls, CWD (cell wall deficient) bacteria, and electron microscopy shows that these bacteria do appear to wall themselves off from the cytoplasm by a thin film, probably similar to the film use in typical biofilms. These CWD bacteria are the big problem as they change the function of the cells by the chemicals that they produce, some of which dock with the VDRs to stop the VDRs from expressing the innate immune chemicals that would kill the bacteria.
Cynthia
____________________
MP start 10/08 (no breaks) | Spondylitis 97, early Diverticulosis 98, early AMD 08, Calcium anomaly 95, TypeII Diabetes(?) 02 | 25D=10.1ng/ml 12/12, (preMP 125D/25D=47/43) | My progress
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Dr Trevor Marshall
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Posted: Wed Sep 26th, 2012 09:20 |
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danhaych wrote: Surprised to get a reply from you Trevor
I couldn't understand most of that study. Is there a written version of that video? My download limit is small so watching the youtube video isn't an option.
How do I find a doctor in my area that understands the MP?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417163/
That is the definitive study. It says that Vitamin D supplementation suppresses innate immune activity. If you don't understand what it says, then please spend some time working through the fulltext more carefully. You can get the fulltext from your med library. After all, that is what an assignment is for, is it not?
I have discussed this issue at length with Vieth himself. Your lecturers have not. It is your job to figure out how to explain to your colleagues that the world is round, and not flat
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Gerard
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Posted: Wed Sep 26th, 2012 16:43 |
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Hi Dan,
Look at it this way there is the huge amount of data accumulating in the MPSS which supports the Marshall hypothesis that any 'vitamin' D external to normal food will tend to make a sick person (especially if there is multiple diagnoses, 'auto-immune' diagnosis, sarcoidosis or Sx which fit no diagnosis) much sicker, including alarm over standard medical practise which makes patient feel better and allows disease process to become entrenched.
To support Sally with some papers:
http://www.philly.com/philly/health/HealthDay667470_20120809_Calcium__Vitamin_D_Supplemen
ts_May_Pose_Risks_for_Men_With_Prostate_Cancer.html?cmpid=138896554
Panel to postmenopausal women: Don't take vitamin D, calcium
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/story/2012-06-07/panel-vitamin-d-
recommendations/55549414/1
Effect of Vitamin D Supplementation on Mycobacterium tuberculosis-Induced Innate Immune
Responses in a Canadian Dené First Nations Cohort
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0040692
In this study we showed that serum levels of LL-37 (cathelicidin) decreased after vitamin
D supplementation in both Dené and Caucasian participants
A comparison of vitamin D activity in paired non-malignant and malignant human
breast tissues.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22750718
Collectively, malignant breast tissue responds well to
active 1,25D, but not to the inactive pre-metabolite 25D.
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MP start Jan'11 (no breaks) | rhinitis'78, sinusitis'78, COPD'82, asthma'82, eyes CSC left'86/right'99, hypertension,'99 hypercholesterolemia'03, legs varicose veins'03, tinnitus'05, hearing loss'05, BPH'06 | last 25D= 28 ng/mL Dec'10
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