The Marshall Protocol - Questions
   
Members

Calendar

Help

Home
   Not logged in - Login | Register 


flux21's Questions
 Moderated by: Admin  

New Topic

Reply

Print
AuthorPost
flux21
Member
 

Joined: Sun Feb 19th, 2012
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 6
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 19:33

Quote

Reply
Thanks to all involved for this support forum.
I have watched several presentations by Dr. Trevor Marshall et al, and browsed the knowledge base.  Many aspects sound logical and I'm interested in the MP, but I am hesitant in the following areas: 


As I understand it, the ARF proposes
AI diseases (Th1) are the result of pathogens suppressing immune cells (via VDR), thus allowing their own proliferation, as well as infection by additional pathogens.  The antigens of these pathogens are similar to those of the host's cells, and therefor the resulting antibodies cause one or more auto-immune diseases? 

1. If my understanding is correct, then it seems the patient would present with
auto-immune disease upon exposure to pathogens with host-like antigens; and that suppressed immune cells via VDR is not necessary (and to the contrary, may even diminish the damaging auto-immune response)?

2. If we look at the AI disease IBS/Crohn's, Cornell published a paper demonstrating that the disease was the result of Intraepithelial Lymphocytes of the intestines encountering the protozoan Toxoplasma gondii, and in turn engaging in a hyper-immune response causing the inflammation and tissue damage we know as Crohn's.  In this case, it's a
hyper-immune response being the cause of AI disease, so wouldn't this support the use of immuno-suppressants, (or in the case of "confused" Lymphocytes, the use of immune modulators) and not immune stimulants?

3. Humans have evolved as outdoor daytime creatures.  We are getting far less Vit-D and sun exposure than our bodies were designed to receive.  Rates of AI disease are much higher in regions farther from the equator and where people spend most of their time indoors.  Is the ARF saying
Vit-D exposure is unhealthy in that it fuels AI diseases (Th1)?  If so, what data is this based on, and why is it counter to the other observations?

(when possible, please include links to research data)



____________________
Current = Acne'89, Depression'00, Dermatographia'01, Diplopia/Blurred Vision'07, Psoriasis'08, RLS'08, Anxiety/Panic'10, SEVERE Crohns'10, Peripheral Neuropathy'11 | pain fingers, fatigue, low cognitive/memory, feet swelling, fungal nails | 25D=23 Oct'11
Sallie Q
Foundation Staff


Joined: Sat Aug 9th, 2008
Location: N.S.W., Australia
Posts: 1262
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 22:55

Quote

Reply
quick answer, flux21
(no references, we are all volunteers here, so someone who has time to look up specific references may not reply for a day or three)

It is my understanding that prof. Marshall has gone beyond cell biology and "suppressing immune cells"

1) Your understanding seems to me like last century medicine, on which most current research is still based. At the sub-cellular level the research team here are convinced that a blocked molecular receptor is causing most of the troubles that conventional medicine cannot cure.
BTW, much reporting of conventional research and some of the research itself seems to confuse amelioration of symptoms for up to 3 or 4 or even 5 years, with cure.

2) well, we have to wonder what causes the "hyper-immune response".
 The body has met a condition which a normal immune response does not control.

 Many such conditions are caused by infection actually within the lymphocytes.
The contribution of prof. Marshall is discovering a unique ARB molecule which used in regular 4-6 hour dosing will gradually allow the VDR to return to normal function, and in turn allow the normal immune response to recover.
Thus the body will no longer generate a "hyper-immune response".

By all means, treat Crohn's with immuno-suppressants and radical lifestyle change. If the patient is lucky the imflammation is controllable with that combination. The downside is no cure from the treatment, the lifestyle change must be permanent. ( My cousin has Crohn's, I would not dream of suggesting MP to her as she is completely stable on conventional treatment. The only downside is her list of allowable foods is literally less than 20 items, some of which are borderline). If she were younger I would acquaint her with the MP program.


3) people who spend a lot of time indoors with other people, are picking up microbes from other people which increase the number of multi-microbial 'slime cities' we harbour... these are the source of disease.

Sallie
PS humans evolved on a sunny planet, nonetheless I think they evolved in forest margins near water.
IMHO people have not changed much, did their hunting when least effort was involved, at sundown when large enough animals came to the waterhole.

Not a lot of sunlight on your skin when you are hiding in the scrub near a waterhole, and given the relative discomfort I would not go digging and gathering and carrying loaded baskets too often when the sky was cloudless (did you ever try digging when the ground is really dry? The pre-hisorians say it was the women grubbed for tubers, but women's arms are relatively not as strong).
PPS not a quick answer, but I love thinking about this stuff :)




____________________
MP uTube MPsep08 depression69 br.cancer90Bowens05 Sjogrens08| sxCFS,lowAdrenal,ADD,migraine,RA,Stroke Medical myth
Sallie Q
Foundation Staff


Joined: Sat Aug 9th, 2008
Location: N.S.W., Australia
Posts: 1262
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Sun Feb 19th, 2012 23:24

Quote

Reply
flux21 also wants to know

I have a related question. It's my understanding the root cause in the Th1 theory is the pathogens' deactivation of the VDR, and the subsequent high levels of free 1,25D. So I see the rational of using Olmesartan to reactivate the VDR, but not the rational behind limiting exposure to 25D, because no matter how much you limit sun exposure, your body will always have enough 25D available to convert to 1,25D, so the action to "limit" it is mute? The issue is the D system needs to get fixed via Olmesartan, and you can't have much effect beyond that by altering D exposure? yes/no/maybe?



____________________
MP uTube MPsep08 depression69 br.cancer90Bowens05 Sjogrens08| sxCFS,lowAdrenal,ADD,migraine,RA,Stroke Medical myth
Cynthia Schnitz
Board Staff


Joined: Tue Jul 29th, 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3680
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Feb 20th, 2012 02:27

Quote

Reply
Thanks Sallie for the copy over.

There is a great deal of suspicion that one does not need 25D in the blood stream for the body, in each cell that needs it, to convert cholesterol to 1,25D, probably via enzymatic action.  One of the reasons for this is that we have hundreds of people on the MP with 25D levels at or below 12 ng/mL.  A fair number even have unmeasurable levels, which the labs put at 4 ng/mL or below.  Yet those that have had their 1,25D measured, and a fair percentage do have it measured every so often, have very normal levels of 1,25D.

Also, I might point out  all the night dwelling animals , and even dark living fish, that don't get D in their diet and do just fine.

Our objective is to get the VDR's functioning.  Olmesartan does that IF it can enter the binding pocket of the VDRs.  The affinity of 25D, and vitamin D by mouth, are less than the affinity of 1,25D, but not by that much that if one is getting a lot of vit D by mouth and 25D by sun and by conversion of vit D, the binding pockets will start to be filled by these inactive forms of D, preventing the hormone and what ever olmesartan is there from entering the binding pocket and preventing the VDRs so affected from functioning.  You must recognize that 25D is a VDR antagonist, and for the good of the functioning of the VDRs, must be kept low.  Olmesartan has an even lower affinity for the VDRs, but we make up for that by taking a lot of olmesartan.

So, when we strive to get the level of 25D down to 12 ng/mL or below, we are finally allowing a major change in the ability of olmesartan, and whatever there is available as 1,25D, to enter the VDR binding pockets, and the immune system gets a major improvement in action.  We see this is our cohort, and I have seen it personally.  I can almost tell you to the day when my 25D crossed the roughly 12 ng/mL activation point, by my sudden increase in IP (immunopathology).

The study of AI vs distance from the equator was a flawed study.  For the southern side of the data, it was only possible to show an increase by using a very tiny cohort in Chile, and they had to throw out all the data for men, and only use women, or there was no effect seen.  Some where there is a discussion of this study, and I believe that there were other reasons proposed to answer the reason for the data in the norther hemisphere.

Cynthia



____________________
MP start 10/08 (no breaks),Spondylitis'97,early Diverticulosis'98,early AMD'08,Calcium anomaly'95,TypeII Diabetes(?)'02,Degenerative hip disease'12, 25D=8.6ng/mL 1/14(preMP 125D/25D=47/43) My progress: http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum30/13911.html
flux21
Member
 

Joined: Sun Feb 19th, 2012
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 6
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Mon Feb 20th, 2012 23:48

Quote

Reply
1. How can Olmesartan act as an agonist of the VDR if it is being blocked/deactivated by the pathogens?  As I understand it, the MP theory is that 1,25D levels are high because they can’t get into the VDR, so neither can Olmesartan? 

2.
Olmesartan has been used for many years in hypertension, have these patients shown any lower incidence of AI disease?

3.
Has another drug been found yet that’s better/faster than Olmesartan for use in the MP? 



____________________
Current = Acne'89, Depression'00, Dermatographia'01, Diplopia/Blurred Vision'07, Psoriasis'08, RLS'08, Anxiety/Panic'10, SEVERE Crohns'10, Peripheral Neuropathy'11 | pain fingers, fatigue, low cognitive/memory, feet swelling, fungal nails | 25D=23 Oct'11
Cynthia Schnitz
Board Staff


Joined: Tue Jul 29th, 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3680
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 21st, 2012 03:26

Quote

Reply
This is painful.  I just lost 2 pages of reply to you.  Shoot!!  I'll try again.

Faster?  I don't think that is what is wanted.  You can only kill bacteria so fast.  The body has all it can handle clearing the debris at the rate we are now progressing.  Not only do you have to clear the dead bacteria, but you have to clear the cells killed in the process of killing the bacteria, and also the body has to deal with increased apoptosis (programmed cell death).  The bacteria, to keep their homes as long as possible, postpone apoptosis.  When the over due cells lose their support from the bacteria, they will die, and add to the load of material the body has to clear.  That is the reasons we have to drink a lot of water, eat a lot of salt, and pee a lot.

Here is a trial of a drug that might well be the kind of thing you are thinking of.  The immune system was so turned on that it almost killed 2 people.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/mar/16/health.medicineandhealth2
http://briandeer.com/tgn1412/tgn1412-film.htm

You have to understand that the kind of ligand that enters the binding pocket of the VDRs is dependent on affinity and on concentration.  And it isn't all or nothing, it is statistical.  So, at any particular time, all of the ligands of interest are in some of the binding pockets.  But which ligands dominate depend on affinity and concentration.  So, 1,25D goes high, but not high enough to displace enough bacterial ligands to function well enough to, for example, bring about the level control of the 1,25D and bring it back down.  However, it does go high enough to enter and block, to some degree, the thyroid and other nuclear receptors.  But, getting back to the VDRs, we take enough olmesartan so that by virtue of its high concentration it will enter enough VDRs to make a goodly number of the VDRs functional.  It displaces some of the bacterial ligands and some the boosted 25D brought about by misguided attempts to help the body, but not all.

If you have seen/read my links above, you will realize that it is probably a good thing we do not activate all the VDRs and have our entire innate immune system come on line at one time.  Having a gradually increasing efficiency of our immune system and a gradually lowering of the microbiota over time is a pretty nice situation.  To a degree we can control this path we travel.  If we feel we are not getting enough IP from olmesartan alone, a sign of the battle going on, we can take sub-inhibitory pulsed doses of certain ABx.  The bacteria are not killed by the ABx, but are debilitated enough to allow for easier killing by the immune system.  But we only use the ABx as needed.  There may be times when it is necessary and times when it is not necessary.

Papers are coming out every day on the non-hypertensive good qualities of olmesartan. You will have to goggle to find them, or you can spend time following the forums below, where members are finding and reporting papers of interest to our community.  Many of the papers are on such new insights about the qualities of olmesartan.
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum39/
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum11/

Hope I haven't missed too much of what I wanted to say, Cynthia



____________________
MP start 10/08 (no breaks),Spondylitis'97,early Diverticulosis'98,early AMD'08,Calcium anomaly'95,TypeII Diabetes(?)'02,Degenerative hip disease'12, 25D=8.6ng/mL 1/14(preMP 125D/25D=47/43) My progress: http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum30/13911.html
flux21
Member
 

Joined: Sun Feb 19th, 2012
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 6
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 21st, 2012 16:31

Quote

Reply
Cynthia, thanks so much for your reply.

4. None of my local Doctors are willing to prescribe Olmesartan, and I don’t want to risk buying the generic version online, so can a Dr. prescribe it for me by phone since Crohn’s disease can’t be seen in-person anyway (making an in-person office visit pointless).

5.  The presentation mentions there are other receptors besides the VDR involved in activating the innate immune response.  How do we determine what others are deactivated, and what can be done to reactivate them?



____________________
Current = Acne'89, Depression'00, Dermatographia'01, Diplopia/Blurred Vision'07, Psoriasis'08, RLS'08, Anxiety/Panic'10, SEVERE Crohns'10, Peripheral Neuropathy'11 | pain fingers, fatigue, low cognitive/memory, feet swelling, fungal nails | 25D=23 Oct'11
flux21
Member
 

Joined: Sun Feb 19th, 2012
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 6
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Tue Feb 21st, 2012 16:37

Quote

Reply
6. If my 25D is already at 23, then it’s not as likely I will gain much symptom improvement from the MP?  Since I’m well under the 50nmol threshold of immune-suppression stated by Dr. Marshall.

7. What about the concept and research showing the high number of chemicals now increasing in our environment that have been shown to induce AI disease (endocrine disruptors, etc).  Is there a part of the MP that addresses the removal of these chemicals from our bodies?



____________________
Current = Acne'89, Depression'00, Dermatographia'01, Diplopia/Blurred Vision'07, Psoriasis'08, RLS'08, Anxiety/Panic'10, SEVERE Crohns'10, Peripheral Neuropathy'11 | pain fingers, fatigue, low cognitive/memory, feet swelling, fungal nails | 25D=23 Oct'11
Cynthia Schnitz
Board Staff


Joined: Tue Jul 29th, 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3680
Status:  Offline
 Posted: Wed Feb 22nd, 2012 16:43

Quote

Reply
4) No, I am sure you will have to see a doctor at least once.  I travel 100 miles each way to see my doctor (Nurse Practitioner, NP) once every 3 months.

5) In TH1 disease where 1,25D goes high, other receptors besides the VDR involved in activating the innate immune response are being blocked by the high 1,25D.  When you start taking olmesartan, enough of the VDRs are usually activated to bring down the high 1,25D, and the problem takes care of itself very early in the MP.  You don't have to do anything.  But, not everyone with TH1 disease has high 1,25D.  Mine was 47 pg/mL. only 2 points above the upper limit of normal by the standards we go by (Merck?).  But, even so, my thyroid took most of 2 years to get up to mid normal levels, and still, after 3 years, could be a little higher by the standards of my hormone expert NP.  So, you just let the MP do the job of getting the other receptors cleared and functioning again.

6) You are mixing units.  Dr. Marshall mentioned 50 nmols/L, that converts to 20 ng/mL, which is where you probably are right now.  And 20 ng/mL is where immune activity generally starts to get going, but at 12 ng/mL, we see a big increase in IP.  Remember there are 2 categories of substances blocking your VDRs.  The 25D and the bacterial ligands.  Bringing down the 25D is needed, but displacing some of the bacterial ligands with the olmesartan is necessary so that the immune system will work well enough to actually make head way against the presence of the microbiota.  Also, you make much more headway because the ARB effects are allowing you to have more immune action for the same amount of discomfort (IP).  Olmesartan is really necessary if you are going to make certain of progress against the microbiota.

7) You don't need to consider these as separate issues, or add any extra procedures.  A properly functioning body will clear the high current levels of problematic chemicals, and keep their levels down to non-problematic concentrations in the body.  I believe there are at least some reports of high metal levels coming down later in the MP, but I think these reports were not read first hand by me, so you might want to try doing a search on metals or some such words and see what you get.  Unfortunately, until you get access to the study site, you will not be able to search on reports of members.  But maybe something will show up in the 2 forums you can read.

There are a few things that do not interfere with the MP, and may be a very good idea to consider.  One is living a low carbohydrate life style, as some bacteria are sugar in blood stream dependent, and may be more easily killed by the immune system if weakened by the removal of high sugar levels in the blood.

Another, tho not sure of any benefit, but it is suspected that aluminum could be a problem for some, and the ease with which the aluminum levels can be lowered in the body is so very simple that it is in no way problematic to do while on or off the MP.  See the first post by Dr. Marshall on Jan 23, 2012 in this forum thread, and watch the video of Dr Exley.
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum11/13707-18.html

Cynthia



____________________
MP start 10/08 (no breaks),Spondylitis'97,early Diverticulosis'98,early AMD'08,Calcium anomaly'95,TypeII Diabetes(?)'02,Degenerative hip disease'12, 25D=8.6ng/mL 1/14(preMP 125D/25D=47/43) My progress: http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum30/13911.html

 Current time is 17:00



* We can help you understand chronic disease, but only your physician is licensed to give you medical care *

Powered by WowBB 1.7 - Entire site Copyright © 2004-2010 Autoimmunity Research Foundation, All Rights Reserved
Click here to view our PRIVACY POLICY
Page processed in 0.1918 seconds (10% database + 90% PHP). 17 queries executed.