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Naltrexone -- opiate receptor blockers
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tammy1000
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 Posted: Tue Jun 15th, 2010 12:44

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Hi,

I took low-dose Naltrexone for about 2.5 years. I am just curious if someone can tell me how that affects the Vitamin D receptor or the immune system in general.

I don't want to take it again. I am wondering if it was step further leading to greater health decline.

At the time, it was great. It greatly improved my food tolerance and chemical sensitivities. In retrospect, it seems like everything that I thought was helping, just made me worse in the long run.

BTW, I have just read a number of articles and interviews from Bacteriality.com. They are great. I understand this bacteria link so much better, especially with confirmation that a lot of other scientists/mds share similar opinions on the nature of chronic disease.

 

Regards,

Tammy

 

 

 



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VitD restr. Dec'08, Problems w/Olm '09-'10, 40mg Olm 4x/day Oct'10, 70mg Mino 1x/48hr now; 88' Severe MCS, allergies, asthma, food sensitivities, celiac disease, cognitive, arthritis, bone loss, periodontal
SCORPIAN
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 Posted: Fri Aug 27th, 2010 23:51

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Do you feel LDN suppressed your immune system?

My physician added LDN to my Phase 1 MP medicines - [olmetec+minocycline], he said a lot of his patients were doing great using both protocols concomitantly, and there was a lot of scientific research on LDN, he had been trying to persuade me of taking LDN for 4 months, I always declined as I have read Prof. Marshall's stance on the matter...

So he sent a prescription, and the LDN bottle from a homedelivery pharmacy, without me paying for it prior to that...the item is sent automatically every month, then the payment is requested...Odd way of doing business...

The FedEx guy delivered the package, I signed for it...

Not sure if I should take this LDN...I stared at the amber glass LDN bottle, it stared back at me....So I eventually took 1ml a few hours ago, I fell asleep for the first time in a long time at 10pm, I usually fall asleep at 4-5am, and sleep for 3-5hours of unrefreshing sleep...She has treated me well, but is she harming me in the long-term? :)

So its cool that it made me sleep like a normal person, but is it suppressing my immune system? I do not want to delay long term progress, for her seductive short term gratification...

My physicians claims it is immunostimulatory, not immunosuppressive...I will request the scientific data before taking another dose...

Last edited on Sat Aug 28th, 2010 00:07 by SCORPIAN



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Dr Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat Aug 28th, 2010 00:59

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My physicians claims it is immunostimulatory, not immunosuppressive...I will request the scientific data before taking another dose
This is based on anecdotal surmise regarding the symptom relief being felt, and a mistaken understanding of the disease process. There is no basis in our scientific understanding for making such a statement, IMO our current knowledge would have to be dumbed-down several levels for this statement to become acceptable.

With that said, my in-silico testing shows that Naltrexone does not target the VDR. However, it might target the PXR.  But given the low dose involved (1/100 of Olmesartan), whatever it is targeting is likely to be pretty specific --> just a small subset of receptors. LDN is an unusual drug because of this low dosing requirement.

I have been unable to figure out what it might be doing. PXR is a possible target, as are the plethora of opioid and cannabinoid receptors. It might block Olmesartan's action in one or more of these receptors, I have no way of knowing until the true target(s) is identified.

I have been toying with the possibility I might turn up at the October LDN conference in Birmingham and chat with some of the patients about what they are specifically feeling :)

In any case, based on the patient reports currently available to me, I have no doubt LDN's actions are predominantly palliative. What we need to ascertain is whether that palliation can be achieved without slowing the MP recovery process. What I have ascertained so far is encouraging :)
 
 

Last edited on Sat Aug 28th, 2010 05:08 by Dr Trevor Marshall

tammy1000
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 Posted: Sat Aug 28th, 2010 10:10

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I am very sensitive, and I only took 1/4 of a capsule, which I believe was 1/4 of 4.5 mg. But even at that dosage,  the first time I tried it, which was first thing in the morning, I couldn't keep my eyes open. It definitely helped me sleep very soundly.

When I stopped taking the Naltrexone, I remember being extremely sensitive to light, noise, and external stimulus for several days or longer. I remember being in the grocery store, and everything just seemed way too much -- like I had some sort of psychiatric problem, which fortunatey I don't have.  It seemed to act as some kind of tranquilizer to my nervous system, and stopping it made my nervous system hypersenstiive through a withdrawal stage.

Within two months of starting Naltrexone and nasal Glutathione, I started collapsing frequently, but I had so many problems at that time, it didn't occur to me until 2.5 years later that one or both may be pushing my body further down the wrong biochemical path.

The Naltrexone improved my food allergies, and I was able to eat more and gain a little weight. The effect it had on my diet may have encouraged bacterial growth.

Good luck with the LDN, I know that sleep is important, but after 2 decades of medical misadventures, I am very hesitant of taking anything I don't have too.

 

Separate question for you:

Another thing I took for a 6-8 months period over a decade ago was strong Ginseng 3-4x/day shipped directly from Korea. The blood test before the Ginseng was normal (probably taken about 6 months before I started). The next blood test was probably a year after I finished the Ginseng, and my liver enzymes were elevated, and have remained elevated since that time. I know a lot of things happen, but I have wondered if the Ginseng (which I felt great while I was taking it -- gained weight, more tolerance, etc.) did something to the liver directly or encouraged bacterial growth.

 



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VitD restr. Dec'08, Problems w/Olm '09-'10, 40mg Olm 4x/day Oct'10, 70mg Mino 1x/48hr now; 88' Severe MCS, allergies, asthma, food sensitivities, celiac disease, cognitive, arthritis, bone loss, periodontal
Dr Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat Aug 28th, 2010 19:07

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Tammy, thanks for sharing your perspectives on LDN. These days 1mg/day is the most-common suggested starting dose, so that correlates with your 1/4 of 4.5mg :)

Ginseng is most definitely active in the immune system. I haven't been following the papers (if any) showing exactly what it does, as it is on our list of "don't go there" supplements, with many members reporting it gives them difficulties :)

I know that sleep is important, but after 2 decades of medical misadventures, I am very hesitant of taking anything I don't have too
That is an attitude which will stand you in good stead as you start your journey to recovery :)
 

ammc
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 Posted: Sat Aug 28th, 2010 21:46

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I thought I might add I was on LDN with a Dr in the US who is using on HIV in Africa I was taking the 4.5mg nightly dose for 1.5 years before starting mp. It did NOTHING for me at all. BUT make my heart race all the time and I had a really fast pulse. I felt anxious alot on it. But as far as pain, it gave no relief nor did not stop disease progression either.

 



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inge
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 Posted: Tue Aug 31st, 2010 06:59

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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote:


I have been toying with the possibility I might turn up at the October LDN conference in Birmingham and chat with some of the patients about what they are specifically feeling :)
 

tammy1000
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 Posted: Tue Aug 31st, 2010 10:15

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Another thing that happened when I stopped taking the naltrexone, is that it felt like the nerve cells in my brain were in fluid, to which voltage was applied.

It's like each brain cell was experiencing a painful electric shock separately.

The sensation lasted for several days. After that, I knew that I didn't know what it was doing to me, but that I never wanted to take it again.

Admittedly, I tend to be more reactive and senstive than most people I have encountered. To those taking LDN...YMMV.

 



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VitD restr. Dec'08, Problems w/Olm '09-'10, 40mg Olm 4x/day Oct'10, 70mg Mino 1x/48hr now; 88' Severe MCS, allergies, asthma, food sensitivities, celiac disease, cognitive, arthritis, bone loss, periodontal
Limburg
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 Posted: Thu Sep 2nd, 2010 19:25

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Hi,

 I used to take LDN for about a year, started it in january 2004 (3mg) From June 2004  I took 4,5 mg. In february 2005 I stopped taking LDN.

During the period I took LDN I noticed not very significant things, my bladderfunction improved somewhat, my sleep was better and my head felt clearer.

I had to stop it because of liverproblems which I had before and they turned out to be AIH (auto-immune hepatitis)

Now that I am on MP,  every now and then I feel the symptoms that we call immunopathology, I felt non of these things on LDN, so maybe it does suppress the immunesystem indeed.

 

 



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Dr Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Fri Sep 3rd, 2010 08:35

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Thanks to everybody for posting the info :)
 

K10
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 Posted: Wed Oct 6th, 2010 04:39

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Thanks Dr. Marshall for looking into low dose naltrexone. I appreciate when you look into many of these palliative drugs people use to see if they may be harming progress on the MP and in what way they effect the receptors in our body. As more and more people start using the Marshall Protocol I think the more understanding we'll need to have on how various different drugs and substances interact with the body and the marshall protocol. Unfortunately many people will not be able to handle the "minimalist" approach when they start the MP and may need a wide range of palliatives including LDN, so it is important to have a compilation of how a variety of substances may effect these peoples progress on the MP. There is still so much to be studied and understood...

Last edited on Wed Oct 6th, 2010 04:40 by K10

wrotek
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 Posted: Sun Oct 10th, 2010 14:35

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Maybe it works on histamine system ?

The Naltrexone improved my food allergies, and I was able to eat more and gain a little weight. The effect it had on my diet may have encouraged bacterial growth.
I understand other opioid drugs don't work like ldn ?

Last edited on Sun Oct 10th, 2010 15:13 by wrotek

Dr Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sat Dec 18th, 2010 18:13

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One of our members fell unconscious when trying LDN. Luckily, her husband was ready to help... At this point in time I see more negatives than positives with LDN.
 
 

wrotek
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 Posted: Sat Dec 18th, 2010 20:35

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I think I remember Dr Marshall that You were saying this on one of the videos.

Peterspa
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 Posted: Sun Dec 19th, 2010 09:49

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Hello everyone,

I am new to whole MP thing, been a sufferer of Chron's for a few years now and looking for solutions on my own now.

During this year, I have done research both on MP and LDN and I am surprised to see the general consensus in this forum is LDN has palliative effect, when all of the other sources available quote it having a strong stimulative effect of the immune system. Also it looks like there is allot more research and papers published on the effects of LDN treatment, incl. clinical trials with people, as compared to MP not having any.

Is it possible that actually both MP and LDN do the same thing, though in different ways?

Dr Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Sun Dec 19th, 2010 17:54

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The members here understand recovery from chronic disease, while those taking LDN think that recovery means being able to 'get from day to day'.

The problem with day to day thinking is that days turn into weeks, and months and years, and all that time you are gradually slipping towards an abyss. Many members here have already been through the "getting from day to day" phase and fallen into the abyss. They realize that palliation is a short-term, and not a long-term, answer.

Of course there is a more scientific rationale. You can read it here:
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/preprints/Proal_MHB_Chapter_preprint.pdf
and here:
http://mpkb.org
I have seen no similar comprehensive science describing the precise actions and efficacy of LDN :) But I myself have confirmed that LDN has no effect on the several pathways through which the MP acts to induce recovery.
 

Peterspa
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 Posted: Wed Dec 22nd, 2010 11:27

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Dr Marshall,

Thank you for your response. Indeed, as I deepened my research I now can see more clearly the fundamental difference between the LDN approach, where presumably the immune system is tweaked to reduce the symptoms, and MP that looks for the root cause of problems and works off of that basis. Indeed information for the long term effects (spanning trough years) of LDN therapy is much harder to find, possibly outlining its weakness.

Perhaps the future will allow us to eventually have a combined treatment that both alleviates symptoms while resolving the underlying cause of the disease itself.

Dr Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Thu Dec 23rd, 2010 07:43

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Peterspa wrote: Perhaps the future will allow us to eventually have a combined treatment that both alleviates symptoms while resolving the underlying cause of the disease itself.
I am working hard on that :)
 

SoundTech
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 Posted: Wed Sep 7th, 2011 00:38

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Dr. Marshall,

I'm considering starting the MP for Sarcoidosis this fall. I've gone and visited a Holistic MD whose name was provided by the site as an MD who would support me on the MP. I am also attending Paul and Amy's support group in NYC for the last two months. I am trying to absorb as much info as possible to be prepared to do the MP long term.

The Doctor I'm seeing suggested LDN therapy as an alternative to the MP just so I could consider all my options. As I looked into it myself, and including this thread, I see the possiblity moreso as a complementary palliative while on the MP and not instead of the MP.

Do you have further comments or research on this since your post above?

Certainly having the option of doing LDN while on the MP and knowing its not hindering the MP would be great to know.

Thanks!

Joyful
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 Posted: Wed Sep 7th, 2011 07:57

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Hi SoundTech. :)

I believe our current position is that LDN is not compatible with the MP.
There are palliatives that we know are more compatible.

For a years long therapy like the MP, wisdom would dictate not taking the risk of it hindering recovery.



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