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kiaren
Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 31st, 2008 03:14 |
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The whole concept of "replacement" or "supplementation" is fraught with non-sequiturs and risks. You should not assume that just because your body is "low" in something that you should be adding a supplement. In the presence of a controlled metabolite, 'deficiency' can be a non-sequitur. [Trevor]
Since (B-12 is) a true vitamin with known neurologic and hematologic effects in its absence it would make sense that a few people could have resolution of symptoms if they receive replacement of a real and profound physiologic deficiency..
..I would only recommend replacement if one has a documented deficiency... [Meg]
Wow, the amount of information here is mind boggling! Is someone going to work all this into a tidy Manual someday? (kidding ... um, well maybe not) Meanwhile, I've printed my own. (heh, heh)
My questions, ref. the above two quotes, are in regard to supplementation. Exactly when, if ever, are supplements a help and not a hindrance, ...and what might they be?
I mentioned that paradigm shifts are hard...
I'm the resident 'googler' as far as health related stuff goes, because we have to be our own advocates in regaining our health, right? (God knows it's not forthcoming from your typical allopathic doc.) So, out of necessity, I live on this computer 'researching' the best supplements, protocols, advice, caveats, etc.. I hardly remember a time when we didn't supplement as a family. We listen to the dogma that we 'need' to supplement for that added nutritional insurance, or because the selenium in our soils is depleted, or because you just don't get all the minerals you need, or because you need to reduce 'ROS' with 'SOD', or... And then I find myself at this website and all that I ever thought I was doing right (supplement-wise) is, well, ...wrong (or counter-intuitive, at best)!? In one sense it's liberating to know I don't 'need' to supplement, but in another, it seems disconcerting.
Anyway, I'm pre-MP and will have to set up an appointment with my Dr. to discuss this with him. I expect him to not receive it favorably, though. I feel like I've already pushed the limits with just the MIRA protocol of prescribed Minocin, along with a heads up for either clinda- or clarithromycin scripts. (No, I don't have RA, but came to my own conclusion that after 13+ years I have CWD's disguising themselves as a systemic yeast infection. Anyway, I was all set to pursue the Brown protocol early summer with him.)
*[Fall '95 - Hashimoto's; blanket diagnosis CFIDS; asthma; MVP]
A few days ago, as I was trying to post my question for a list of MP docs, Trevor responded to my post to help me out and here's what I wrote back (improper order, I know) -
...I was all set to start the MIRA protocol early this summer, until I landed a summer cold in June (which I never do). It was especially virulent, but I was handling it remarkably well, I thought. Well, long story short, it never left my weak lungs all summer, and my usually non-existent asthma has worsened to new heights recently - (life threatening heights).
Unfortunately, I bought all the current hype on vita-D supplementation, and have been supplementing 5000IU/day for over a month now - (and also Krill oil, EPO, many supplements over the years, and Cod-liver oil during the winter). *A-a-and, because I was set to start the MIRA protocol, I already had Minocin (tm) in place, and some Nystatin as back up (because of total and complete resistance to all other anti-fungal prescriptives) to control my systemic yeast infection which I was sure to aggravate.
My plan was to have a root canal properly removed and the cavitation properly cleaned to alleviate myself of that toxic burden first, take a short course of azrithromycin (to kill the strep which goes along with root canals), and then move on to the pulsed, low dose Minocin (100mg). I was set to ask my dr. for a script of either clinda- or clarithromycin, not doing the IV's, but a 12-1500mg. dose once a week on a Min. off-day, and continue for at least 3 to 6 months or more. (Yes, I knew about your protocol, but since the full protocol wasn't as easily available online, and since I am doing this solely on my own with only a 'fairly' open-minded doc who I have to educate as I go along, I chose the easier Brown protocol. Why? Seemed easier, less meds to talk my dr. into prescribing, and because early on (when I was still exploring all protocols), I had mentioned the ARB to my doc hoping he might acknowledge the science behind it, but was met with resistance, due probably to insufficient materials on my part.
Obviously, I'm pursuing your protocol now, and I'll tell you why. My recently exacerbated asthma has me scared for my life, and what I understand now (that I didn't before), is that ARB's mediate herx reactions. I am literally scared that a microbe is going to take me out of this world. I don't need to be convinced that I have a huge mycoplasma infection that has been disguising itself as a systemic yeast infection for over 13 years. What I didn't tell you is that, when I got that cold in June and it landed in my lungs, I took a 14 day course of an antibiotic - minocycline, at my request. (I believe it was the standard dose of 100mg. 2xday). A-a-and, because my insurance dictated that I use two drugs before I could be approved for the Minocin, I moved up to a standard 200mg. 2xday of demeclocycline, again at my request. (I didn't finish the demeclo.) I actually handled the mino. alright while I was on it, but when I came off the second ab, my lungs just seemed to get progressively worse. For over a month I had my bee-sting kit by my side in case I went into anaphlaxis, and sleep was minimal at best because I regularly had to use my rescue inhaler all night long.
I finished by saying - My asthma is totally out of control right now, and I'm not even on a program. I have genuine concerns that I'll live through a herx reaction when I start the MP! I'm down to 114 lbs. and have lost a lot of muscle mass due to adrenal fatigue. I feel emaciated and battle weary...
I know now that it was because of the huge and immunocompromising amount of Vita-D I was taking that made my asthma get so extremely bad, but (serendipitously) it's what scared me into looking seriously at the MP. (Yeah, I've since stopped all Vita-D consumption and feel much better now.)
1. If my Dr. miraculously does prescribe Benicar for me, but then is unwilling to join the Physician's professional support group, it would be necessary for me to register and be accepted into your next study group to receive mentoring directly by you, right? Otherwise, as an independent, I'd need to be monitored by an actual MP doc who would have access to this site, correct?
2. I've read that it is okay to supplement with D-free whey (which would boost my glutathione levels), but what about rice and yellow pea protein to rebuild muscle mass? Okay, or not?
*(I believe I also read that phytoestrogen [cream], and milk thistle would be harmless. But, what about chia seeds? Green drinks are out, too, right?)
Thanks for bearing with me on this lengthy post!
~ kiaren.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Sun Aug 31st, 2008 06:24 |
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IMO you are better to stay away from whey, as its ingredients are largely unknown. Similarly, you don't need to supplement glutathione, Omega fatty acids, or even Vitamin D, while you are recovering using the MP science
Milk thistle is OK, but not the other two things you mention. Weak green tea (not steeped) is OK. In fact it is an excellent substitute for sucralose-sweetened water
Google the MP site for more info on these topics... and don't forget to check the ABC of MP
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kiaren
Member
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Posted: Wed Sep 3rd, 2008 22:04 |
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Hi, wind flower.
Firstly, thanks very much for being so quick to respond (via private message) to my first post at this forum. I appreciate that, ...and I appreciate what you said about supplementation.
I'm writing you back because you said you would continue to "watch my thread and offer encouragement when [you could]." Well, even though I'm thrilled that my post received Trevor's attention, as you can see, I was hoping I might get a little more feedback from others. Sooo, I've watched and waited over the weekend, but I haven't heard anything more. (And I do realize with a holiday, staffing might be minimal.)
Trevor answered, "Milk thistle is OK, but not the [other two] things you mention". Okay, so everything's out except weak green tea and milk thistle. Chia seeds, green drinks, phyto-estrogen cream, D-free whey protein, and rice/yellow pea protein is out. I guess I was hoping there would be something I could take to assist me in rebuilding muscle mass. I basically thought that if it was a whole food, just as you might eat for a meal, it would be okay to take. Might there be anything in the world of whole food supplements (or otherwise) that would be helpful to take, I guess is my question?
Also, I asked two specific questions about how I should proceed with the MP in regards to medical direction; either as an independent under an MP doc, or as an enrollee in your next study group under your mentorship. Just need a little clarity on this one, please.
Perhaps you could bring my post(s) to the attention of some others, so I could have just a little more feedback on my questions? I did (however, briefly) look at the ABC of the MP, as Trevor suggested, and I will refer back to it as time permits.
Thanks, again.
~ kiaren. *(If you think this post should be moved to my thread, please feel free to do so.)
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Julia
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Posted: Wed Sep 3rd, 2008 23:31 |
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Hi Kiaren,
We're all volunteers here, and can't always answer straight away. Thanks for your patience.
Exactly when, if ever, are supplements a help and not a hindrance, ...and what might they be?
See Why do I have to stop my alternative treatment and avoid most supplements?
I guess I was hoping there would be something I could take to assist me in rebuilding muscle mass
There is, it's called the MP 
1. If my Dr. miraculously does prescribe Benicar for me, but then is unwilling to join the Physician's professional support group, it would be necessary for me to register and be accepted into your next study group to receive mentoring directly by you, right? Otherwise, as an independent, I'd need to be monitored by an actual MP doc who would have access to this site, correct?
MP Memberships are Closed (due to overwhelming demand). You must find a doctor who is prepared to join the Professionals' Forum in order to access Phase 2/3 in due course. S/he can also discuss with other professionals and Dr Marshall. You can continue to ask general questions here in your own questions thread, but for medical questions you would look to your doctor.
Julia 
____________________
Sarc/uveitis/hypercalcaemia/ankle osteoarthritis/eczema. MP May04. 25D Apr09:5.6. Life is good!Julia's story
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kiaren
Member
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Posted: Fri Nov 7th, 2008 15:50 |
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[On Benicar.com] Use Benicar and Benicar HCT with caution if you have a history of allergy or bronchial asthma. The usual starting dose is 20 milligrams once daily.
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[On a forum] "I have been taking Benicar for blood pressure for a year, developed bronchitas, asthma in past 6 months, any connection??"
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[On Google search] It is prescribed in severe cases of asthma or those that are difficult to control. (???) [my emphasis]
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[On another forum] "...Think of how much better you will be able to breathe without the beta blockers!!! I had to stop mine for the same reason - not being able to breathe. I am on a more suitable beta blocker now..."
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The approximate three month delay in my posting is due to being paralyzed with fear about runaway immunopathology once I finally start some meds because of sudden, life-threatening asthma that 'happened' to me this past summer. (Note: Up until a respiratory infection set this all off last June, my asthma has almost been non-existent and very much under control.) I realize I can't continue to do nothing, and especially now that we're coming into flu season, but as I weigh out ALL my options with various anti-microbial protocols, there's always something that gives me pause. I am so inflamed at this point that ANYTHING I do is going to exacerbate my asthma, and I truly am at a loss to know which direction is the safest for me to take. Steroids, IV clindamycin, Benadryl, Benicar,... I haven't found a lot at this site for those of us with SEVERE asthma. I NEED to do this right whatever I decide to do. I can't afford to make any mistakes at this point of debilitation, (...and fading fast). I've read at this site that if I suspect a strep infection or parasites (which I do), they would best be dealt with first before beginning the protocol. IF I take the anti-parasitic albendazole first, (even as a one-time dose), I'm afraid of intolerance (ie. worsening asthma) because I've developed a resistance and sensitivity to the -azole drugs from a systemic yeast infection I've battled for 13+ years. IF I take a course (short or long) of Zithromax (to rid myself of strep and use as prophylaxis during root canal removal), again I worry about exacerbating my asthma, ...and I just cannot afford to do that because we're talking life-threatening here! IF I take steroids to control my asthma, I will exacerbate my yeast infection, which in turn will worsen my asthma. IF I take any abx, ...the same. I risk exacerbating my yeast infection and worsening my asthma. IF I take Benicar, I've been warned (by my pulmonologist) that asthmatics should never take any type of beta-blocker, ...anything that would slow the metabolism down. (Note the above Googled citations about Benicar, except for the one which gives me some hope.)
So, anyway, this is my urgent and serious dilemma. And for anyone out there who can relate, what should I do? Can someone PLEASE help direct me, here?
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Julia
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Posted: Fri Nov 7th, 2008 19:50 |
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Hi Kiaren,
[On Benicar.com] Use Benicar and Benicar HCT with caution if you have a history of allergy or bronchial asthma. The usual starting dose is 20 milligrams once daily.
This not from Benicar.com, but from PDR Health. Benicar.com only mentions a possible asthmatic reaction to Benicar HCT (with diuretic). The MP uses plain Benicar. I suspect PDR Health were being over-cautious.
The MP doesn't use the 20-40mg/day dose of Benicar, which is for lowering blood pressure. At MP doses of 40mg every 6-8hrs, the action of Benicar is different.
FDA safety insert
Benicar-Basic Information
Why shouldn't we ramp up the dose of Benicar?
[On a forum] "I have been taking Benicar for blood pressure for a year, developed bronchitas, asthma in past 6 months, any connection??"
Note that the reply to this question was to go back to the page of Benicar side effects, which did not include asthma.
Benicar 'side-effects'
[On Google search] It is prescribed in severe cases of asthma or those that are difficult to control.
I couldn't find this. It's hardly likely.
[On another forum] "...Think of how much better you will be able to breathe without the beta blockers!!! I had to stop mine for the same reason - not being able to breathe. I am on a more suitable beta blocker now..."
Benicar isn't a beta-blocker, it's an Angiotensin Receptor Blocker (ARB), so I don't see the relevance of this. There was no mention of Benicar in that forum as far as I could see!
I've read at this site that if I suspect a strep infection or parasites (which I do), they would best be dealt with first before beginning the protocol.
See Will the Marshall Protocol treat co-infections? Note that it says if your doctor has found a strep infection you will need a course of antibiotics before you start the MP, and gives advice on which to use. You don't have to 'suspect' strep, you get it checked and treated.
If your doctor believes you have parasites, s/he should be able to choose a medication that won't affect your asthma.
The way to know for certain if the MP will help you is to get your D-Metabolites tested.
Now, here's some more cheerful reading to allay your fears...
Not needing a nebulizer any more, just realized I have not touched my nebulizer in quite a while. This is getting better daily. I have improved so much in just 42 days on Marshall Protocol. - BARNEY
...breathed heavily through my mouth when walking to/from my car. ( in below zero temps) I found it DID NOT DISTRESS MY LUNGS. No Coughing or shortness of breath, no need for inhaler. - CJ
I've not had a single asthma attack since starting the MP,
no longer react to most chemical/pollen/mold exposure,
SOB has greatly diminished, and it's seldom anymore that I'm "too tired" to breathe. - Alayne
Asthma (no attacks 5 months) - Cricket
Briar (Cricket's daughter) hasn't had any issues with asthma for ages and is going gang busters for her soccer season.
These are taken from Success Stories
Please ask any further questions here at your own personal thread. If you lose sight of it, click on 'My Account' at the top of the page, and the link will be there.
____________________
Sarc/uveitis/hypercalcaemia/ankle osteoarthritis/eczema. MP May04. 25D Apr09:5.6. Life is good!Julia's story
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kiaren
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 8th, 2008 18:25 |
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Hi, Julia.
Yes, I know that Benicar is an ARB, but the misappropriation of Benicar to beta-blockers in my last post - [ [url=wlmailhtml:{C39F443B-0C22-44E3-895F-B22DC93C1FBE}mid://00000325/!x-usc:http://healthboards.com/boards/archive/index.php/t-573918.html]http://healthboards.com/boards/archive/index.php/t-573918.html[/url] ] (third post from flowergirl2day) "Think of how much better you will be able to breathe without the beta blockers!!! I had to stop mine for the same reason - not being able to breathe. I am on a more suitable beta blocker now..." - most likely happens because these drugs both slow the metabolism, and have apparently been used for the same purpose...
[ [url=wlmailhtml:{C39F443B-0C22-44E3-895F-B22DC93C1FBE}mid://00000325/!x-usc:http://www.healthyinfo.com/clinical/angiotensin/angiotensin.shtml]http://www.healthyinfo.com/clinical/angiotensin/angiotensin.shtml[/url] ] -
Several long-term studies have also demonstrated that ARBs and ACE inhibitors have comparable efficacy. ...Other studies have shown similar blood pressure reduction compared to ACE inhibitors, calcium channel blockers, beta-blockers, and diuretics (McClellan, & Markham, 1998; Stumpe et. al., 1998; Severe, 1997; Gillis & Markham 1997; Corea et. al., 1996; Goldberg et. al., 1995).
ARBs have also been compared to calcium channel blockers. ...This randomized double blind, parallel study of the antihypertensive efficacy found the two medications to have equivalent efficacy in blood pressure reduction.
Two of studies have been completed comparing atenolol, the gold standard of beta-blockers, to ARBs.
Regarding your comment of "...hardly likely" after this citation - [ [url=wlmailhtml:{C39F443B-0C22-44E3-895F-B22DC93C1FBE}mid://00000325/!x-usc:http://www.picsrv.fora.pl/]http://www.picsrv.fora.pl[/url] ] WYSTĄPIŁ PROBLEM Z ŁADOWANIEM FORUM (obviously, a Polish forum that I couldn't find again) "It is prescribed in severe cases of asthma or those that are difficult to control." - you might be interested in this article which states - [ [url=wlmailhtml:{C39F443B-0C22-44E3-895F-B22DC93C1FBE}mid://00000325/!x-usc:http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20080309193820data_trunc_sys.shtml]http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20080309193820data_trunc_sys.shtml[/url] ] "Although counterintuitive, Bond's studies are reminiscent of hair-of-the-dog folk wisdom to treat like with like, in this case using beta blockers (or antagonists) instead of stimulants ( or agonists) in asthmatics...Acute asthma attacks have traditionally been treated with inhaler-type stimulant drugs that open constricted airways. Giving beta blockers to asthmatics has long been thought to be contraindicated, because they can cause increased airway resistance...Using beta blockers when it seems a stimulant is called for defies medical dogma, but this is not a new concept."
*(Just as an aside and in a similar vein, another article you (or Trevor) might find interesting, albeit simplistic and may be flawed to a degree, is [ [url=wlmailhtml:{C39F443B-0C22-44E3-895F-B22DC93C1FBE}mid://00000325/!x-usc:http://www.news-medical.net/print_article.asp?id=33791]http://www.news-medical.net/print_article.asp?id=33791[/url] ]. A UK article, it talks about a novel new way to control allergies and immune dysregulation.)
Okay, so now back to my original concern which was whether Benicar is able to palliate runaway immunopathology concerning severe, life-threatening asthma when I start taking meds to which I would normally be intolerant to, first to eliminate parasites and then a strep infection (which, incidentally, HAS been tested and confirmed)... From the same citation above at healthyinfo.com - "ARBs have consistently been shown to have a side effect profile equal to that of placebo, so they may be the drugs of choice for patients who are prone to adverse effects."
Also, you found some success stories for me, so I searched and found a tidbit at 'Asthma side topics' on the MP [ http://www.marshallprotocol.com/view_topic.php?id=9317&forum_id=37&jump_to=105742 ] (member LH1953) "...I have been on the MP for 22 months. I had to get off the steroid inhaler in order to start the MP. I was scared to do this, but the Benicar seemed to help a great deal with the inflammation. After 8 months, I was able to stop the meds I used to take for all my other conditions. After 12 months, I no longer could take the 12 hour ( long acting) bronchial inhaler. It would make me feel ill. I am only using my rescue inhaler 4 times a day, to control my Asthma. My MCS has improved, thus not being such a big trigger anymore. BENICAR actually stopped an Asthma attack I was having when out, within 10 minutes. (I should have chewed and put it under my tongue) I had left my inhaler home, and felt doomed, then tried the Benicar, and WOW...This should give you a good idea just HOW much the MP has helped my Asthma."
So, Julia (or someone), do you think if I started on the Benicar FIRST before doing anything else, it should be able to control any severe adverse effects with regards to my asthma when I take drugs that normally would provoke hypersensitive reactions from me, in your opinion?
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Sat Nov 8th, 2008 18:27 |
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Kiaren,
Could you please give us a list of all drugs and supplements which you would be taking when you are suggesting you would like to commence the Benicar, along with average dosing?
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kiaren
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 8th, 2008 19:55 |
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Hi, Trevor.
I take a miniscule amount of Armour thyroid (when I remember) at a mere 1/2 grain (30 mg) at bedtime. I OVER-use a bronchodilator (Proventil-HFA) out of necessity, and try NEVER to resort to my steroid inhaler because it exacerbates my systemic yeast infection, which in turn worsens my asthma. (It HAS crossed my mind I might have steroid resistant asthma.) I take NO other drugs, although I have prescriptions for many...
...A recently filled prescription for Prednisone at my GP's request to use in an emergency situation, (but would probably never take it). Another one for hydrocortisone (low dose) at my request to help my adrenals, but haven't taken that one, either. I DO have a bee-sting kit to use in a true ER situation!
Finally, I have a script for Nystatin (the only antifungal left I may be tolerant to) prescribed back in June when I expected to start the Brown protocol with Minocin. This was to control the yeast I was sure to aggravate. *[Btw, this is when a respiratory infection set this whole asthma thing off! I'm convinced the generic minocycline and demeclocycline at standard dosages that I took for that infection - (because my insurance required I try two abx before they would approve brand name Minocin for me) - had a lot to do with this!
The supplements I take are vita-C, a one-a-day multi, HCL w/betaine, L-Glutamine, Flax oil, Rhodiola Rosea, Tumeric, Ginger, TMG, Eve. Primrose oil, B12,... I know, I realize no supplements are recommended on your protocol. (At least I don't take a vita-D supplement!) 
Also, I finally had my D-levels tested, by not by reputable labs, I'm sure. (My holisitc doc has sold out and joined a very allopathic medical group which dictates the tests he can run.) [ 25-D was 43 ng/mL; and 1,25-D was 42 pg/mL] In my op., most of these tests are unreliable and a joke - testing plasma and not whole blood, with ref. ranges as wide as the horizon... Incidentally, I did test positive to mycoplasma pneumonia that my doc is passing off as a latent infection.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Sat Nov 8th, 2008 20:07 |
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At least I don't take a vita-D supplement!
Well, Primrose Oil often has a lot of Vitamin D added to it (5 micrograms per normal 'dose'). Certainly your 25-D value of 43 ng/ml indicates a huge amount of total supplementation. I would also finger the flax oil, and maybe other things.
There are Advocates here who have more experienced than I with Food/Vit D issues, and I will leave suggestions about your diet to them. The same goes for Armour Thyroid, others have more experience with dosing of that.
A high 25-D does not stop you from starting Benicar, but you may notice immunopathology as your 25-D drops.
Finally, I would suggest that you start to confine your research to the resources we have here, and on the MarshallProtocol.com and MP-Lifestyles.org sites. You will find that the science expounded here, and the studies we link to, will cut the amount of 'noise' to that which is essential to your recovery.
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kiaren
Member
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Posted: Sat Nov 8th, 2008 20:55 |
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I was only backing my citations that Julia had looked up and commented on. I know, that turned out to be quite a messy post with all those url's.
As far as my D-levels being so high, I have supplemented in the past with high IU vitamin-D. I just meant that I wasn't now, at least. I knew my D-levels would be high. Incidentally, what does happen when you inadvertantly take vita-D and take Benicar at the same time? Is it harmful? Is it counter-productive?
Still, though, could you (or someone) give me an answer to my question from my earlier post - So, ...do you think if I started on the Benicar FIRST before doing anything else, it should be able to control any severe adverse effects with regards to my asthma when I take drugs that normally would provoke hypersensitive reactions from me, in your opinion? In other words, will Benicar be my only saving grace when I start to kill parasites, strep, and later CWD's with drugs I wouldn't otherwise be able to tolerate? I'm not just talking herx here, but possible allergic reactions. ( I have no known drug allergies, except possibly to the -azole [antifungal] class.)
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kiaren
Member
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 03:54 |
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I'm in a rather urgent situation right now, so I hope someone can get back to me quickly.
First of all, I still have my question unanswered from 10 days ago (last post before this one), so it would really be nice to hear back on that one....., but right now I'm in an even more serious situation with my asthma. To add insult to injury, two days ago I caught an upper respiratory infection which has now gone into my lungs, as it always does. (Yes, the mucous is colored.) My lungs didn't need this additional assault right now, because as I've already written, my asthma has been out of control since June. That's a long time to struggle to breathe. (Actually, you might like to reread my list of if/then statements from my Nov. 7th post (5th one down in thread) so you can better understand just what has been holding me back from any treatment program at this point.) Anyway, I had been hoping my reluctant Dr. would have prescribed Benicar for me by now because I see that as my only saving grace, but he's been dragging his feet. I told him I couldn't keep waiting, because I knew something like this might happen...
Okay, so here's my questions and concerns:
First and foremost, should I ask my doc for two scripts, given the urgent situation here, of Benicar + (mod edited - ph 2 abx) to get me out of this RTI? I know he's going to urge me to take prednisone, but even my steroid inhaler makes me feel bad at this point. Anyway, I know you should be off steroids when starting Benicar, but what about starting an abx along with Benicar (pre-MP) in a case like this?
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Concern - The FDA and EPA are phasing out the CFC inhalers (which work) for the HFA inhalers (which don't work) for asthmatics due to environmental reasons, in case you didn't know. My HFA rescue inhaler, therefore, is not helping and sometimes worsens my asthma. There is only one pharmacy in Ohio where I can still buy (out of pocket for $40/inhaler) the CFC inhalers, and my only other option is to buy them from India at $3/inhaler at $25 SH! (Incidentally, I've ordered 5 from India, but won't receive them for another week!) (I've also ordered 1 bottle of portable [recreational] oxygen (ie. no script), but won't have that until December!) I did find out that I can get a script for a dry-inhaler (non HFA or CFC) called Maxair (pirbuterol) which is similar to albuterol but may be more effective. Some info -
"Albuterol is a short-acting beta2 agonist that causes bronchodilation... Albuterol can have systemic adverse effects, such as tachycardia, cardiac dysrhythmias, hypokalemia, and hyperglycemia... A patient who is receiving beta adrenergic receptor blocking agents, also known as beta blockers, may not see the full effect of albuterol, because these agents can cause bronchospasm in asthma patients and also block albuterol from achieving bronchodilation. Selective beta adrenergic receptor blockers may not cause these problems to the same extent and are generally considered safe to use with monitored asthma patients... Paradoxical bronchospasm can occur with short-acting inhaled beta2 agonists. If this occurs, the beta2 agonists should be discontinued immediately. Paradoxical bronchospasm can mimic an asthma attack that is not responding to treatment with a beta2 agonist... Structurally similar to albuterol, pirbuterol (Maxair) is also a beta2 agonist."
Question (for health professional) - Would Maxair be contraindicated on the MP?
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Concern - In regards to epinephrine, Trevor has said - Some species, particularly Mycobacterium leprae, are known to feed directly off nor/epinephrine in the nerve endings. This has been documented for many years. But then he said - In an urgent or emergency situation the risk/benefit weighs heavily in favor of the use of epinephrine. The use of epinephrine is primarily a problem when dealing with surgery, including dental surgery.
Question - In emergency situations, are epi-pens and epinephrine okay (in light of the fact that I do have a mycoplasma infection)?
*And, btw, since I'm on the topic of mycoplasma infections, I've had this question for Trevor for quite some time now. Trevor said - There are different types of evasion techniques used by the intraphagocytic infection. The 'biofilms' ... use one, Mycobacterium leprae and Mycobacterium tuberculosis use a different technique, and yet another is used by the Rickettsias. The subinhibitory dosing of the MP seems to work differentially on Mycobacteria and the 'Biofilm' species. Although ultimately the restored immune system gets them all, we are still trying to gather data which describes this differntial... To which Greg Blaney replied - ...I was under the impression that biofilm species were the main problem, but in light of other intraphagocytic pathogens being successful with other maneuvers, how might the VDR become the king pin otherwise?
*Question - Has Trevor discovered this differential yet? And how would this affect the implementation of the MP for those of us with mycoplasma infections?
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Concern - In regards to anti-fungals, Trevor has said - You need to understand that anti-fungal treatments can kill Th1 patients... Forget all you have read about anti-fungals. They all have a profound effect upon the host, as well as on the infection... Azoles affect the operation of the D-metabolites, and/or the VDR but they do it in a manner which is not dose-controllable, as Benicar does... Do not use any of the antifungals unless it is absolutely 100% necessary...
Question - Nystatin is not an azole antifungal. Perhaps, this one is okay to use to control a systemic yeast (co)infection which majorly affects my lungs when it gets out of control with abx?
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Concern - And finally, with regard to starting the MP, is there a new consensus on light avoidance now since it has precluded some people from beginning the protocol? I inferred from what I've read that you've become less strict in this regard, and that it would be better for someone to begin the protocol and deal with any adverse photosensitive effects than not to proceed with the protocol at all.
Question - Is it still necessary to be prepared with the noIRS, 30 lux lighting, and black out drapes before beginning the MP?
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natalie17
Member
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 11:12 |
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Kiaren,
We are not responsible for your medical care. When concerned at all, or in an urgent situation as you report, it is always reccommended you call your Doctor ASAP, and if neccessary, go to the emergency room or call 911.
Suggest you have the ER Information for emergency room personnel on hand when you begin the MP.
Also please take note that we are (at the moment, very few) volunteers and are doing our best to answer everyone's questions.
So, ...do you think if I started on the Benicar FIRST before doing anything else, it should be able to control any severe adverse effects with regards to my asthma when I take drugs that normally would provoke hypersensitive reactions from me, in your opinion?
Go through the Benicar-Basic Information
Especially How does Benicar work?
.. and discuss with your Doctor. Unfortunately I am not a medical professional and can only lead you to the right reading.
First and foremost, should I ask my doc for two scripts, given the urgent situation here, of Benicar + (ph 2 abx) to get me out of this RTI?
I am unable to/uncomfortable answering this.
Question (for health professional) - Would Maxair be contraindicated on the MP?
Again, I am not a health professional, and not manyhave the time to be here. Your Doctor is best, if s/he hasn't already, to join the Private Section for Health Professionals
... s/he will have access to health professionals on yourbehalf there.
I also assume you have seen;
Medications to Avoid While on the Marshall Protocol
Question - In emergency situations, are epi-pens and epinephrine okay (in light of the fact that I do have a mycoplasma infection)?
See What do I need to know about epinephrine?
Question - Nystatin is not an azole antifungal. Perhaps, this one is okay to use to control a systemic yeast (co)infection which majorly affects my lungs when it gets out of control with abx?
Medications to Avoid While on the Marshall Protocol
Candida
Question - Is it still necessary to be prepared with the noIRS, 30 lux lighting, and black out drapes before beginning the MP?
For now -
What are the latest recommendations regarding sun/light exposure?
Should I wear NoIRs, avoid natural light exposure and eliminate vitamin D before starting Benicar?
I'm sorry I can't answer your quesitons more specifically - if we answered in so much detail for everyone we'd never be able to keep up. Discuss all concerns with your Doctor get he or she to join the Professionals' Forum and be aware of the ABC of the MP (FAQ easy finder).
Best,
Natalie
____________________
I can help you understand the recovery process, but only your physician is licensed to give you medical care.| ABCofMP|My Story
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kiaren
Member
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 19:10 |
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"...you MUST discontinue all antibiotics and antibacterials BEFORE you start Benicar. [And, I'm guessing, antiparasitics as well - my emphasis] This is because Benicar greatly potentiates the action of many antibiotics, and consequently a severe or life-threatening immune system reaction may result..."
Well, I guess that answers it. Pretty much all these questions of mine are a moot point now:
>In other words, will Benicar be my only saving grace when I start to kill parasites, strep, and later CWD's with drugs I wouldn't otherwise be able to tolerate?
>Anyway, I know you should be off steroids when starting Benicar, but what about starting an abx along with Benicar (pre-MP) in a case like this?
>Would Maxair be contraindicated on the MP? and/or In emergency situations, are epi-pens and epinephrine okay (in light of the fact that I do have a mycoplasma infection)?
>Nystatin is not an azole antifungal. Perhaps, this one is okay to use to control a systemic yeast (co)infection which majorly affects my lungs when it gets out of control with abx?
A person's got to do what they've got to do, I suppose, with regard to bacterial infections and abx before the MP, but once you start the MP, it's the Benicar and nothing else, (meds wise)! *Although I have read that ideally it would be prudent to eliminate any strep or parasite infections before starting the MP, IF you could handle the abx, that is, (huge point)!
The answer to my question from Nov. 8th - Okay, so now back to my original concern which was whether Benicar is able to palliate runaway immunopathology concerning severe, life-threatening asthma when I start taking meds to which I would normally be intolerant to,.. is most likely yes, but only after starting phases 2 and 3.
Okay, so now that I'm clearer on all that now, I still have one unanswered question from my last post that I hope someone can still answer for me -
*And, btw, since I'm on the topic of mycoplasma infections, I've had this question for Trevor for quite some time now. Trevor said - There are different types of evasion techniques used by the intraphagocytic infection. The 'biofilms' ... use one, Mycobacterium leprae and Mycobacterium tuberculosis use a different technique, and yet another is used by the Rickettsias. The subinhibitory dosing of the MP seems to work differentially on Mycobacteria and the 'Biofilm' species. Although ultimately the restored immune system gets them all, we are still trying to gather data which describes this differntial... To which Greg Blaney replied - ...I was under the impression that biofilm species were the main problem, but in light of other intraphagocytic pathogens being successful with other maneuvers, how might the VDR become the king pin otherwise?
*Question - Has Trevor discovered this differential yet? And how would this affect the implementation of the MP for those of us with mycoplasma infections?
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Nov 19th, 2008 19:24 |
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Mycoplasma is not a significant pathogen. You don't have to worry about it. It is associated with illness, not the cause of illnesses, for example, like Leprosy or Tuberculosis or Q-Fever
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kiaren
Member
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 20:38 |
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Okay, Trevor... Sooo, in what disease processes is the VDR not ultimately the "king pin", though? I mean, aren't most of these immune dysregulated diseases caused by the CWD/biofilm species, of which I thought mycoplasma was one?
I just wondered if you could explain what you meant by your statement - The subinhibitory dosing of the MP seems to work differentially on Mycobacteria and the 'Biofilm' species. Although ultimately the restored immune system gets them all, we are still trying to gather data which describes this differntial...
Obviously, when unsure of an exact diagnosis or disease state, restoring the innate immune system puts the burden on the innate intelligence of the human immune system to put things right. But, my question is, in what instances might the mark be missed, or at least hampered, by focusing only on unblocking the VDR?
Currently my immune system is a train wreck and I suspect many things, but I know for a certainty that I do in fact have a systemic yeast CO-infection, (a-a-and so called "autoimmune disease", ...a-a-and asthma, a-a-and MVP), but beyond that I just know that I'm sick and that the culprit I've assumed as the key player must be the infamous CWD/biofilms in the form of a huge pleomorphic and very resistant mycotic infection, in my case. Possibly there are other receptors to unblock, for instance, but the fact that you mentioned that there is a difference in evasion techniques for some of these pathogens - ...There are different types of evasion techniques used by the intraphagocytic infection. The 'biofilms' ... use one,... makes me wonder. "Evasion techniques" for my little pleomorphs would be the understatement of the year, and I just want to know that I'm on the right track with the MP, that's all.
(Oh, and by the way, ...just how is it the VDR gets blocked in the first place??? I know vita-D plays a huge part, biofilms a part, pathogens a part, ...but does it finally come down to genetics in the end?)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Thu Nov 20th, 2008 20:43 |
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Please study the videos and transcripts of our recent presentations. You can find links to them in these threads:
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum39/12376.html
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum39/12139.html
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kiaren
Member
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Posted: Mon Nov 24th, 2008 20:13 |
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Thank-you, Trevor. I have now watched all your video presentations dating back to 2004 in Budapest, to your three 2008 conferences in Stockholm, Berkeley, and Porto. (I listened to Amy, as well as Tom Perez and Greg Blaney, too.) These are all very informative, and thank-you for making them available for us to watch and learn, ...BUT I have a habit of asking too many questions in my posts, so although many of my questions get answered, I still have not heard anything that satisfies the question I originally asked you, ...the same question Greg Blaney asked you quite some time ago. [And please know, I am not negating at all what you wrote me two posts back - Mycoplasma is not a significant pathogen. You don't have to worry about it. It is associated with illness, not the cause of illnesses, for example, like Leprosy or Tuberculosis or Q-Fever.]
Obviously, restoring the innate immune system is the answer for curing chronic disease, so I don't need to be convinced that the MP is the way for us sickies to go, ...but in light of what you said, specifically citing Rickettesia, Mycobacterium Leprae, and Mycobacterium Tuberculosis, as utilizing different evasion techniques than the biofilms do - There are different types of evasion techniques used by the intraphagocytic infection. The 'biofilms' ... use one, Mycobacterium leprae and Mycobacterium tuberculosis use a different technique, and yet another is used by the Rickettsias... [which, btw, has a similar anitimicrobial protocol discovered by the late JB Jadin, MD and followed by his daughter Cecile Jadin, MD] And to which Greg Blaney replied - ...I was under the impression that biofilm species were the main problem, but in light of other intraphagocytic pathogens being successful with other maneuvers, how might the VDR become the king pin otherwise? You continued - The subinhibitory dosing of the MP seems to work differentially on Mycobacteria and the 'Biofilm' species. Although ultimately the restored immune system gets them all, we are still trying to gather data which describes this differential...
Have you gathered the data yet which describes this differential? I would be very interested to know how you answered Greg on this one. Can you explain please?
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kiaren
Member
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 20:20 |
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The subinhibitory dosing of the MP seems to work differentially on Mycobacteria and the 'Biofilm' species...
Well Trevor, I'm not hearing back from you on this, so I'll just assume you either haven't discovered what this differential is yet, or else you find it inconsequential. It makes one wonder, though, if the MP might not be the treatment of choice for some, especially those having the specific types of Th1 disease you mention. It just is curious because, as I mentioned in my last post, Rickettesia (which you single out) has a similar treatment protocol as the MP (and other CWD protocols by Nicolson, Brown, Jadin, Vanderbilt, Stratton, Wheldon, Sriram) in that the abx used are quite similar, ...all including pulsed tetracyclines. Yes, admittedly, the MP is unique because it wakes up innate immunity to do the ultimate job, with abx as an added assist, only. BUT, you make me wonder if there might be other avenues, other modes of attack, other ways of tweaking or waking up the innate immune response that could possibly be more effective for SOME of these (mentioned) Th1 diseases.
Okay, well anyway, I have another question. It is suggested that if a strep or parasitic infection is suspected, it would be best to eradicate it first before beginning the MP. I would like to take the antiparasitic albendazole @ 400 mg. one time dose, repeated after 10 days, as recommended by a gastroenterologist. Therefore, it is what I would prefer to take. Unfortunately, I have developed a severe resistance to ALL the antifungal tri-azoles (and imidazoles). Further, you strongly warn against taking them, ...that "these are not harmless drugs, and their use carries significant risk to the pt." ! Given that I absolutely can NOT handle these antifungals anymore, do I dare take another type of imidazole in the form of an antiparasitic? Do you know if this drug would act upon the Cyto.P-450 detoxification pathway as do the antifungals? Do you think as a one time dose it would lessen the risk? SO THIS IS NOT CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL ADVICE... Might there be a particular antiparasitic YOU YOURSELF would take if albendazole is contraindicated? (And, while I'm at it, if it were YOU, any old macrolide to deal with the strep?)
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