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willwiegman
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2012 14:10 |
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Minocycline +
Does Minocycline alone force Borellia to hide again?
The following discussion was started as a result to a reply to ute123:
June 10, 2012
willwiegman wrote:
Borrelia uses free radicals (ligands) to block macrophages use of Vitamin D3 so if you up your anti-oxidant intake you can take away the Borrelia's ability to make the macrophages impotent.
D3 levels will be high when infection of your white blood cells Borrelia is high.
You get enough Vitamin D daily from being out in the sun for only 10 or 15 minutes a day.
June 11,2012
Gerard wrote: As far as I can see I can not confirm your statement in fact the contrary:
pubmed paper 8088871
Interaction of B. burgdorferi organisms with mouse bone marrow-derived macrophages (BMM phi) leads to phagocytosis of microorganisms, induction of nitric oxide (NO) and superoxide radicals (O2-) by BMM phi and killing of spirochetes.
The mechanisms of the body to withstand attacks of bacteria are very complicated. Also bacteria have lots of attack strategies.
Dr. Marshall has founded his protocol to strengthen the immune systrem on a " in Silico" simulation model and some of it is described hereunder also the feed back systems for vit D:
Pathogenesis
Vitamin D
Olmesartan
Gerard
[EDIT: to fix links; I think I included them all - pgeek]
willwiegman wrote:
Read the 8880871 article again. They are talking about the process that your body's macrophages use to kill the spirochete.
I'm not talking about the free radicals of Oxygen and NO that the microphages use to kill the spirochete after they wrap around them and gobble them up.
I'm talking about the free radicals in your body floating around that Borrelia attaches to it's outer cell walls to disquise itself and use to bind up the Vit D->D22->1,25 process.
To quote Dr. Marshall: (my parenthesis)
""When bacterial ligands (free radical attachments in the case of Borrelia/VitD blockage) block the VDR, the Receptor is prevented from transcribing CYP24A1, a well-studied enzyme which breaks down excess 1,25-D. A full understanding of all these mechanisms supports the conclusion that elevated 1,25-D and depressed 25-D are a result rather than a cause of the inflammatory disease process."
"Borrelia blocks the binding and activatiion all of the body's Vitamin D Receptors" (Marshall) by basically sticking a free radical into the bonding site. The more free radicals you have floating around in your system, the more times Borrelia can do this.
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Ligand+(biochemiostry)
It doesn't matter how much Vitamin D you take, Borrelia will just lock it up if you don't eliminate the free radicals in your system floating around that it uses.
http://jcm.asm.org/content/44/10/3778.full
From this abstract we read: "It is well established that Borrelia species express different surface components depending on the temperature (21, 27), pH (4, 21) and cell density (30)."
4.(Carroll, J. A., C. F. Garon, and T. G. Schwan. 1999. Effects of environmental pH on membrane proteins in Borrelia burgdorferi. Infect. Immun. 67:3181-3187.)
21.(Ramamoorthy, R., and D. Scholl-Meeker. 2001. Borrelia burgdorferi proteins whose expression is similarly affected by culture temperature and pH. Infect. Immun. 69:2739-2742.)
27.(Stevenson, B., T. G. Schwan, and P. A. Rosa. 1995. Temperature-related differential expression of antigens in the Lyme disease spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi. Infect. Immun. 63:4535-4539.)
30.(Yang, X. F., A. Hubner, T. G. Popova, K. E. Hagman, and M. V. Norgard. 2003. Regulation of expression of the paralogous Mlp family in Borrelia burgdorferi. Infect. Immun. 71:5012-5020.)
By the way, I have a degree in Sub-Cellular Microbiology from Indiana University, Bloomington.
Might help to read this:
http://www.drtheo.com/vitaminD/documents/VitaminD-itsroleandusesinimmunology.pdf
Another thing you don't want to do is eat Zinc supplements: Most bacteria use iron, Borrelia uses Zinc instead.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17977509
Zinc supplements that usually kill other bacteria are like a free lunch to Borrelia!
Sally Q wrote: There are one or two fora for this type of discussion in the MPSS research study
Sallie
willwiegman wrote: Sally, ute123's main question was "...what could be causing the D 1,25 to be so high...?".
It would certainly take a somewhat technical answer to explain it to her.
Sub-cellular chemistry is an overwhelmingly complex area for normal people to understand because of all the abreviations and technical language used to describe all the things goings-on inside and outside a single cell.
People need a general understanding of the processes to have faith in the protocol.
I agree with Dr. Marshall on all points of his protocol as he currently sees things.
I have Lyme and was cured but was re-bitten/infected again this last March and was able to knock it out already using his theory but my own timing/protocol so I know it works.
June 12, 2012
Sallie Q wrote:
willw..
I apologise if I came across in a way I did not mean to.
I like the way you posted replies that were short and to the point, sometimes I get carried away.
I really would enjoy seeing you post some of those comments and links onto the research site. We have one member in particularly most of whose posts are a heads-up to recent research that could possibly link in to what is actually happening in vivo
Sallie
June 13, 2012
willwiegman wrote:
Sally, thank you. I haven't had time to read everything on Dr. Marshall's site yet. I tend to make huge jumps from simple theories like his findings that olmesartan blocks bacteria from blocking the VDR process. My background allows me to fill in all the blanks almost intuitively.
Could you please direct me to your 'research site'. I will read everything tonight after work
Thank you for your time.
WW
Sallie Q wrote: The free-to-see forum for scientific matters is here http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum39/
the price of access to
>Discussion of MP issues which might be of interest to members, but not to the public.
is to request membership of the MPSS (as a guest member, perhaps, if you are no longer taking Olmesartan). http://www.curemyth1.org/forum7/3902.html
When/If you do so, it may assist Admin to know if you were a member of the original site, now closed, and the member name you used there.
Sallie
June 15, 2012
Dr Trevor Marshall wrote: willwiegman wrote: Borrelia uses free radicals (ligands) to block macrophages use of Vitamin D3 so if you up your anti-oxidant intake you can take away the Borrelia's ability to make the macrophages impotent.
Willy, this is the most ridiculous trash I have seen in some time. Please refrain from posting this misleading and incorrect pseudo-science until I get back from Russia and can help you understand things a little more clearly.
willwiegman wrote:
Great, I'll look up the abstract I read in the meantime and re-read it. Hope to hear from you soon.
Keep up the good work.
People are dying from neuro Lyme now when they get arrhythmia in their sleep and it causes blood clots in their brain tissues. Happened to 3 close friends of mine in the last 4 years.
Dr. Trevor Marshall wrote: Yes, "Lyme" is a killer. But not of people who are recovering with the MP. Let's discuss this fully, after the 22nd
willwiegman wrote: OK, thanks. WW
Last edited on Wed Jul 11th, 2012 17:12 by
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2012 17:22 |
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The following discussion was started as a reply to fee.
June 10, 2012
willwiegaman wrote: You have half the list of symptoms for chronic Lyme Disease...a pretty heavy Borrelia infection possibly.
I contracted it 3 years ago. Classic case complete with the red ring. Thought it was ringworm and put ringworm medicine on it. The Lyme got into my blood stream and within 3 weeks dropped me to my hands and knees in the street. I went to a walk-in clinic where they did a standard blood test. My white blood cell count was really high and they gave me Cipro, 500mg, twice a day for 21 days, which knocked it out. They never really found anything, just figured something was making me white blood cell count high. Took me a couple months to get over the Herx reaction. Had the entire list!
Then I got re-bitten last March, 2012, and it started all over. I did a modified Marshal protocol using Doxy when I get joint pain, stiff neck or tender feet, Tindamax and Minocycline when I get brain fog, headaches, tingly 'bug bites', Bactrin/Tindomax when I get intestinal problems.
I'm taking anti-oxidents to keep my Vitamin D levels normal and aerobic exercise a half hour after taking any of the abx's instead of the olmesartan (ride 2 miles on my ten-speed) to open up my capillaries as this makes them work 13 times better!
I'm 63 and working 6-8 hours a day at my regular job of remodeling houses and doing all the kinds of physical work I've done my whole life with no real problems at all.
Now and them, some of the residual Borrelia wakes up from it's cyst for or CWD form but I've learned to recognize the symptoms now and take the combo for those symptoms.
June 15, 2012
Cynthia Schnitz wrote:
Will, just to be clear about terminology, there is no such thing as a modified MP. Either you take olmesartan at effective levels, or the words Marshall Protocol should not be used in any way. At one time, many years ago now, the protocol was designed to be an ABx (antibiotic) therapy, but that fell by the way side when it was discovered that the olmesartan was the key to waking up the immune system to do all the heavy lifting. There is now even concern that many ABxs are more palliative than effective in killing the bacteria, and of no value in killing the viral component.
Your need to repeatedly use the ABx to knock down the symptoms is very reminiscent of my Candida problem of a decade or more duration. I had to go on a refresher of Nystatin every 3 to 6 months when the symptoms would come back. I have been on the MP for 3.5 years now, and have not had any Candida recurrence since the start of the MP. Since your life is so functional, I would expect that the MP would not be a very difficult thing for you to go thru.
Cynthia
willwiegman wrote:
Yes but finding a doctor in Florida to prescrive olmesartan has been impossible for me since I already have low blood pressure...have a new lead on a Doctor newly relocated to Indian Rocks Beach, FL, from Boston who is a LLD.
Will try him soon.
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willwiegman
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2012 03:32 |
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http://www.newhaven.edu/82773.pdf
Recent ground breaking study undoubtedly shows that two herbal solutions together break up the 'cyst' or round form of Borellia b. and also the 'biofilm' colonies.
Samento (from Cat's Claw) and Banderol are used for a month at a time alternating betweeen them so as not to possibly create a resistant strain.
While Doxy alone will drive the spirochetes into hiding, these two eliminate the two 'dormant' forms.
Minocycline is Doxy plus another tetracycline form combined I believe.
If Dr. Eva Sapi hadn't contracted Lyme, this would have been a long time coming...
Combining this with Doc Marshal's plan and the 3 years just might be reduced to 3 months!
Last edited on Fri Aug 10th, 2012 03:34 by willwiegman
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Sallie Q
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2012 06:02 |
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what newcomers to this site need to understand is that the Marshall Protocol is quite different both in action and in intent, from treatments designed to kill micro-organisms by use or induction of antibiotics (either pharmacological or natural) to break up a particular microbe.
The Marshall Protocol works to restore the natural immune reactions of the human body by clearing blockage of the VDR.
Initiating and maintaining healthy immune response until Olmetec is no longer required will take several years (and I mean several, not 1 or 2) at the very minimum for someone who is not very ill and has never been exposed to steroids.
For most people who have received a variety of immune suppressing treatments for more than one symptom set, it will quite possibly require ten years. But that is nothing compared to most people with the diseases 'of middle age' who almost always will eventually be prescribed a variety of medications for the rest of their (shortened) life span.
If you read enough people's progress topics on this site, you may notice that it is often people who want the re-balancing process to be shorter, who mess around and make things worse (and sometimes impossible) for themselves
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2012 11:22 |
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willwiegman wrote: Combining this with Doc Marshal's plan and the 3 years just might be reduced to 3 months!
This line is a bit worrying when you think about the potential implications for IP. The role of biofilms in the MP is still unclear, so if you go ahead with this then be very careful.
It is an interesting article.
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willwiegman
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2012 13:17 |
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There is no doubt that the body's own immune system can kill Lyme spirochetes when it is not handicapped by Borrellia's ability to tie up the VDR.
The reason the Marshall plan takes so long is that B.b. can go for 41 days as a live spirochete before it needs to divide or die. But it can stay in it's other forms almost indefinetly as a cyst (balled up form) and in the biofilm (coated cluster) form possibly for years. It is a war of attrition if you like. And eventually, if you live long enough, you will be cured.
It behooves us to look for a more effecient way. 3 to 10 years of suffering, especially for young people, is unacceptable by anyone's conscience. Finding a way to combine Dr. Marshal's method along with an added method to force the invaders out into the open where the body's fully functional defenses can eliminate them would seem to be the next logical step.
The photos in the Sapi abstract are of LIVE cultures stained with a new process using flourescent stain and UV (black light) making these forms, that Borellia can 'shape change' to and be cultured from, no longer theoretical. They are real and existing in anyone who still has symptoms and possibly many of the people who are no longer showing symptoms.
Even when Minocycline or Doxycycline or white blood cells attack the out layers of exposed spirochetes who are partially exposed in the biofilm , the spirochetes inside gain even more protection from the dead ones caught on the outside of the biofilm cluster.
Dr. Sapi had Lyme so bad her brain swelled up. Now she's back at work! I ordered the Samento and Banderol last night, should get it by Tuesday. I will be following the direction posted as to amounts and timing very carefully.
I have found that, right now, I can get instant resurgance of my Lyme symptoms in 4 hours by working outside in 100 degree heat for a few hours and drinkng a couple quarts of name brand sports drinks.
Last edited on Fri Aug 10th, 2012 13:22 by willwiegman
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Cynthia Schnitz
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2012 14:07 |
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willwiegman wrote: While Doxy alone will drive the spirochetes into hiding, these two eliminate the two 'dormant' forms.
Not likely Will. Where is all the enormous IP that would be created if you were clearing all the dormant forms of bacteria. How about the process of clearing all the dead bacteria and all the dead cells that have lost their bacterial support that kept them from apoptotic death, and now must die.
You need to see what happens when the immune system is turned on and really does start to clear bacteria at an advanced rate. Check out these links for the Trial That Went Wrong. It is an eye opener.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/mar/16/health.medicineandhealth2
http://briandeer.com/tgn1412/tgn1412-film.htm
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willwiegman
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2012 15:01 |
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Yes, I know about this and it is allowed for in the protocol by starting out with one drop of Samartan diluted in 300 drops of water once a day for a week increasing the dosage up to 10 drops a day in each of the following 9 weeks, then switching to the other product's protocol in the same manner but different solution amounts.
Herx is a positive thing to me, in tolerable levels of course...no pain, no gain as they say.
I'm at work now so I'll get more info available tonight.
I appreciate your concern.
Last edited on Fri Aug 10th, 2012 15:03 by willwiegman
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Chris
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2012 15:08 |
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3 to 10 years of suffering, especially for young people, is unacceptable by anyone's conscience.
I don't this is an issue of conscience. Or maybe you don't use the term the same way I do.
If the young person is healthy, the MP does nothing and takes no time. No problem of conscience there.
If there is an effect from the MP, and it takes 3 to 10 years, then that young person was also a very sick person. Talk to Natalie about spending three years on the MP in order to get out of her sick bed and back to life. She has no issue of conscience about recommending the MP.
There's an issue of empathy about not wishing that the MP took time or pain, but it is definitely not an issue of conscience.
You and I could wish that the MP was pain free, but if wishes came true, the better wish is that young folks never needed the MP. As long as young folks get TH1 problems, my wish is that they get on the MP sooner rather than later.
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willwiegman
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Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2012 02:41 |
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Borellia b. hides just as readily from the immune system when it is healthy as it does from antibiotics.
If you can stop it from going into it's cyst and biofilm forms with the Samartan and Banderol then the MP enhanced immune system will be able to kill all the active spirochettes unabatedly and in quick order.
I ordered some for myself but they back-ordered it on me for two weeks. I'll go first...
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Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2012 04:51 |
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| Well, let us know in a few years how you are getting on with this. Cynthia
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willwiegman
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Posted: Wed Aug 15th, 2012 00:56 |
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You are so funny!
I'm symptom free right now and working 8 hour days after getting re-bitten by a tick this last March and getting Lyme symptoms two weeks later and then doing my intermittant Doxy/Mino/Tindamax thing whenever symptoms hit me in different parts of my system.
I thought Dr. Marshall wanted to discuss the pros and cons of adding to and varying the Minocycline used sparingly in his protocol after he got back from his Russian lecture trip.
Dr. Charles Lind Crist, MD, of Missouri, USA who is a LLMD has had luck with L-lysine which he says restores the nitrogen levels in the body back up to optimum levels. Nitrogen kills all kinds of bacteria.
He discovered this when two of his Lyme patients who were SCUBA divers went on a deep dive trip and experienced spontaneous recovery from the Borellia infections. Apparently the combination of the high pressures and the nitrogen being forced into their blood stream permeated their whole being and killed off all the spirochetes no matter what form they were in.
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willwiegman
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Posted: Wed Aug 15th, 2012 01:08 |
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Chris, my effort in suggesting added, proven methods of killing the Lyme spirochetes is only to suggest that there are added measures that have worked for other people that drastically shortened their recovery time.
I myself was stricken with Lyme disease which put me on my hands and knees literally in the street one day from the pain in my joints rising to such levels that I almost passed out.
I was building a two story log cabin for a friend of mine at the time completely by myself so I was in excellent shape before being bitten by that one little tick. There are over 18,000 abstracts that have been written on the subject of one aspect of Borellic burgdorferi.
In the last 18 months great advances have been made in microscopy that now allow researchers to study live cultures that are stained and observed under ultra-violet light. This was never possible before and it has brought to light alternate forms that they can shape-change into.
I know it is part of the Hyppocratic Oath that Medical Doctors adhere to that says they shall cause no patient undo pain from their healing methods so I understand the reluctance to put anyone through bad Herxheimer reactions.
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Cynthia Schnitz
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Posted: Wed Aug 15th, 2012 05:58 |
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Did you watch/read the links I gave you for the 'Trial that went wrong'? The MP does a very adequate job of killing the bacteria and friends, and particularly at a rate that is already about as fast as can be comfortably handled, and in some cases too fast. So help with that is not needed. I suggested reporting back in a few years, because that is the problem with these many 'cures' that don't involve IP at a comfortable limit for years. So, years later, tell us if you are maintaining your 'cure' or not.
Dr. Marshall is extremely busy right now, and unfortunately your 'discussion' looks like it is going to be a never ending discussion with his having lots of reading of your papers/arguments to do which he just does not have time for. I suggest that you start in reading the many discussion threads open to the public on the Study Site to see what has been going on with subjects you have an interest in.
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum39/
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum11/
Cynthia
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willwiegman
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Posted: Wed Aug 15th, 2012 14:51 |
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L-arginine is the the only amino acid with four nitrogen molecules and can raise the nitrogen levels in a person's system. Nitrogen is used by the body to corrupt the metabolism of invading bacteria and kill them
As suggested by this study,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21564333
They found: "...treatment of B. burgdorferi cells with DEA/NO resulted in nitrosative damage to several proteins, including the zinc-dependent glycolytic enzyme fructose-1,6-bisphosphate aldolase (BB0445), the Borrelia oxidative stress regulator (BosR) and neutrophil-activating protein (NapA). Collectively, these data suggested that nitrosative damage to proteins harbouring free or zinc-bound cysteine thiols, rather than DNA or membrane lipids underlies RNS toxicity in wild-type B. burgdorferi."
Dr. Crist suggests taking L-arginine in very small amounts to begin with as it lowers your blood pressure.
Warning! Someone who is on the MP will not be able to use L-arginine in large quantities because they are already on the blood pressure lowering drug Olmetic.
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willwiegman
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Posted: Wed Aug 15th, 2012 15:14 |
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Yes, I'm trying to keep up with all the new posts. I realize Dr. Marshall is quite busy both working with people on his protocol and defending it against groups like the FDA.
I am not a detractor of the fact that it works. People on it have gotten better no doubt.
The human immune system is nearly a perfect selective defender of a person's health if it is not compromised by any of the multitude of things that can go wrong in it's complex design.
I am simply looking for ways to re-instill the depleted potency and other shortcomings in the general support system of the body that allows the immune system to work perfectly once the MP has eliminated the VDR blockage.
Last edited on Wed Aug 15th, 2012 15:28 by willwiegman
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Cynthia Schnitz
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Posted: Wed Aug 15th, 2012 17:56 |
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| L-arginine was one of the ingredients in a witches brew I put together years ago to strengthen my immune system, incorrectly believing it would correct a faulty immune system and cure the arthritis in my back. That brew strengthened my immune system all right, but corrected nothing (of course, I now know why), and made my life a living hell for a year until I found I could suppress my immune system with omega 3 oils. The important information from this story is that getting the immune system to go after the microbiota, or just killing the bugs by other means is going to lead to immuno pathology. You don't get something for nothing. So, if you think that your way is faster, meaning more bug killing for the amount of discomfort, you will have to be the guinea pig and show us the results in years to come. Cynthia
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willwiegman
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Posted: Thu Aug 16th, 2012 00:53 |
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Not sure if you had Lyme (Borellia b.) but if you did, they bored into your bone and cartilage to hide from the immune system.
When they do that they leave bits of their outer cell wall around the hole they create and antibodies recognize it and mark it and the macrophages attack the rim of the hole in your bones causing what is termed an auto-immune response...very painful.
It is often diagnosed as arthritis but arthritis, which causes nearly the exact kind of joint pain, is quite different in physical characteristics and caused by a completely different metabolic response.
I have seen pre-historic mammoth leg bones with huge arthritic deposits on them so it has been around a long time and is easily recognized as a build-up on the mating surfaces and not holes. The body may be trying to fill those holes though.
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Posted: Thu Aug 16th, 2012 03:00 |
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| Sounds like a biofilm problem as the organism has to cover the hole with something. I believe the improved immune system works on biofilms. Cynthia
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willwiegman
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Posted: Thu Aug 16th, 2012 04:47 |
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Yes if the biofilm colony is small enough for the phagocyte to wrap around.
Other reasons for biofilm survival are found in this article:
"...the mechanisms that enable bacteria in biofilms to resist host defenses are less well characterized, but include (i) limited penetration of leukocytes and their bactericidal products into the biofilm, (ii) global response regulators and quorum sensing activities that increase resistance to leukocytes, (iii) decreased ability of leukocytes to engulf biofilm bacteria, (iv) genetic switches that increase resistance of bacterial cells in biofilms to the immune system, and (v) suppression of leukocyte activity through effector regulation."
http://www.microbemagazine.org/index.php/02-2009-home/58-bacterial-biofilms-resist-key-host-defenses
Keep in mind that this article is so old that great new strides have been taken in the understanding of biofilms, especially in the last 18 months.
Once a person's immune system is overloaded by infection, catching up is impossible without some outside help...fever is the natural equalizer but B.b. can take 106 degrees and survive.
Last edited on Thu Aug 16th, 2012 04:51 by willwiegman
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