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Hogan
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Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 02:56 |
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| I would like to hear from some of you who have naturally low BP. I have read in the protocol that it is ok to have low bp. I have usually 90/58ish. How many of you have had BP this low from the start and were able to tolerate the benicar?
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Kas
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Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 03:36 |
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| Yes, my starting BP was much the same, and I have coped with much lower numbers even on the MP and managed to work and lead a normal life, for the most part. Keep your fluids up and eat salty stuff and all should be well. see My blood pressure is already low. Can I take Benicar?
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GeorgeinRollaMO
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Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 04:48 |
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Hogan,
Our Meg Mangin, who does so much over at the 'study' site, has reported low BP to start, and continuing while on the MP..... and NO problems!!!
If you read my Alumni post of recent vintage, you will see that I have found out that it is the die-off of bacteria that causes me to get dizzy upon rising or from bending over, not the Benicar. Trevor has always said it was not the Benicar. I agree now what with my experience.
This dizziness does have to be dealt with, but is surmountable. It is not a lowered BP, as is thought, IMO.
Wishing you, and all, wellness!!! 
Dark Vader...aka, George
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Borreliosis (but really Th1 inflammation). Start D values, July '04, 125D/57, 25D/61...over supplementation with D (fish oil).
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Hogan
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Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 13:47 |
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Thanks to both of you for your replies. My case is also complicated by a health issue that is the result of a reaction to the fluoroquinoline family of drugs. I believe that I have developed a mitochrondrial deficiency which caused my Th1 issue to become worse. I was originally diagnosed with CFS over 20 years ago and thought it was from a viral illness that I got at the time. I recovered from the CFS after about 18 months and was basically fine until I was given a fluoroquinoline once again last year for a resistant sinus infection. I hadn’t received any fluoroquinolines again prior to that. By the third day on the antibiotic I developed a severe reaction to it which left me bed ridden in addition to a host of other neurological and cardiac issues for over 6 months. My immune system which was already weak was also affected. During the fall and winter I contracted multiple lung infections and lyme and as a consequence have been on antibiotics since October. My D1,25 was very high (69) when it was checked in December but I don’t know what it was prior to that. I do know that I have been told over the years that I have a low D level. I am also now positive for EBV and HHV6 which I never was before.
I know Dr. Marshall has said that people who need a Non MP antibiotic can take floroquinolines but I wouldn’t ever take one of them again and I would tell anyone I know the same. I am not concerned about taking the antibiotics with the MP protocol, but I am concerned how my body will react to the herx and the low BP. I have had herx with medication before when I was on zithromax and it isn’t fun but I will get through it if it will help in the end. I just don’t want to add something to the mix that is going to make me worse in the long run not better and I guess there is no way prior to that to determine the end result. I am still trying to find a doctor. All the doctors I have been followed by at this point refuse to do the therapy because they say lowering the D level is not what I need. I will keep looking for one and have contacted some from the list of doctors from this site, but none are willing at this point.
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Julia
Advocate
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Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 15:02 |
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Hi Hogan,
My normal BP has always been 90/60, and on starting Benicar and proceeding through the MP, it never changed! I never had any reaction to Benicar - apart from long-term success in overcoming my sarcoidosis Many members start with low BP, and only report a little dizziness as the body adjusts hormonally.
Don't be scared of herx because you've had a reaction to antibiotics in the past - you were probably taking very much larger doses than we use on the MP, and presumably not following the MP lifestyle - avoiding light and vit D. The reason the MP takes so long is that the doses are kept small to control reaction. If you killed too many bugs at once, their funeral would knock you out! See Immunopathology Tutorial.
Herx can usually be controlled by adjustment of the meds - it's essential to post at least once a week in your Progress Report, as the medical moderators can advise on this, and can often spot trouble before it happens.
Fluoroquinolone Antibiotics
Julia 
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Sarcoidosis, uveitis, hypercalcaemia, osteoarthritis, eczema. MP May 04.
Leading a full life - good old MP! Julia's story
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GeorgeinRollaMO
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Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 18:09 |
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Hogan,
You said, "All the doctors I have been followed by at this point refuse to do the therapy because they say lowering the D level is not what I need."
I suspect that the reason that the doctors said that is that they just do not understand about 25D suppressing the immune system, and the fuller story about "vitamin" D. They still believe in the old medical wifes tales about "vitamin" D.
For a starter with learning about this product, do a Google search on "Pleasant Valley Farm Supply". Then, when that site comes up, put "Quintox" in their search engine. You will see that cholecalciferol ( "vitamin" D3 ) is the MAIN ingredient of their RODENT Poison. It kills better than the anti-coagulant. It kills rats and mice in only 2 to 4 days by pulling calcium out of the bones and putting into the heart. Now think about what arsenic, lead, mercury and thallium does if given a little over a long time. Dr. Marshall says that this rodent poison has been known and used for decades in Europe and Australia. I have to ask, "How did this effect ever escape the medical community?" And remember, that in almost every State of the U.S. the law demands that "vitamin" D be put in every milk product that has any fat removed. And, it is added to almost every breakfast cereal... do a check at the supermarket. And, it is added to many supplements.
Then, see this article by Canadian investigative newswriter Stephen Strauss about Rheinhold Vieth, Phd, going all over the No. American scene promoting "vitamin" D in the last few years. Think not only about conflict of interest but also how many people are actually consuming "rodent poison" thinking it is good for themselves.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_strauss/20080213.html
Then, go to this U.S. Dept of Ag. research website that shows this study saying that a LACK of "vitamin" D does not cause rickets, the strongest of old medical wives tales, http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=169216
And if the doctors would read PMID: 17332234 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE], the article by Demay MB, Sabbagh Y, Carpenter TO, of the Endocrine Unit, Massachusetts General Hospital, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts, USA. demay@helix.mgh.harvard.edu they will see it is a lack of phosphorous that causes rickets.
Do read the article at http://www.bacteriality.com, which tells about what Dr. Len Lichtenfeld, Deputy Chief Medical Officer for the national office of the American Cancer Society says, and The truth about vitamin D: fourteen reasons why misunderstanding endures which is also an article at the bacteriality site. There are also some more very good reading articles at that site, in the right hand corner, plus some Interviews.
You might also read Vitamin D-Basic Information that is at the MP 'study' site and Vitamin D Tutorial
Hogan, you will need to read, read and read some more to become your own best advocate!!! Then educate the doctor that you think you might like to work with. Just asking one to assist you will not do the job. Maybe, print out those articles cited above. The medical community needs to catch up with what is going on in the modern world, as Dr. Marshall has written his latest paper that is entitled Vitamin D discovery outpaces FDA decision making Both the abstract and full paper are linked here.
Wishing you, and all, wellness!!!
Dark Vader...aka, George
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Borreliosis (but really Th1 inflammation). Start D values, July '04, 125D/57, 25D/61...over supplementation with D (fish oil).
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Staff
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Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 20:13 |
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George,
Actually, it is not compulsory to put Vitamin D into low-fat milk. Because it is possible to poison people if you put too much Vitamin D into miilk, there are FDA rules to follow if a manufacturer decides to supplement their milk, but it is perfectly legal and acceptable to sell low-fat milk just pasteurized, with no added vitamin D. Some manufacturers, such as Broguiere's here in California, choose to just add Vitamin A to their 1% milk, and no Vitamin D In So. Cal. it is resold by Whole Foods Market and Bristol Farms.
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GeorgeinRollaMO
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Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 21:07 |
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Trevor,
I think that what you are saying is true in California. However, I have had at least one fairly large dairy in a different state tell me that in certain states it is required by STATE law. I would think that they would have to be on top of what the various STATE laws have to say. The Feds may get into the act, too, with what you say.
Double jeopardy!!! in many cases, but not all.
Wishing all wellness!!!
Dark Vader...aka, George
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Borreliosis (but really Th1 inflammation). Start D values, July '04, 125D/57, 25D/61...over supplementation with D (fish oil).
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Staff
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Posted: Sun Mar 23rd, 2008 21:20 |
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George,
This issue has come up before, and I am sure that the dairy is lying to you. Ask for a reference to, or a copy of, the State law.
The truth is that while all the manufacturers supplement their milk they have less legal liability if something goes wrong, like those deaths in the early 1990s resulting from poor quality control at a smaller dairy. So they will close ranks and try to alter reality.
Of course, if there is a State law somewhere, I would love the opportunity to look at it
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Jeannine R.N.
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Posted: Mon Mar 24th, 2008 06:58 |
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I found this at the Agriculture Marketing Service for the USDA
Federal, State, and local laws or regulations control the composition, processing, and handling of milk. Federal laws apply when packaged or bottled milk is shipped interstate. Raw milk is prohibited from being sold interstate.
Site http://www.ams.usda.gov/kidsweb/dairygrading.htm
Ok want a bigger laugh about people taking large amount of Vit D ...then read this letter from Milk Safety at the FDA saying to much Vit D is not healthy and that milk can only be supplemented within a limit...so hears to all the guzzling Ders out there
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~ear/mi92-13.html
This is what the FDA says about Vit D and milk...it is only a recommendation http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~ear/pmo03o.html
Good manufacturing practices require that the vitamin A and D levels be in compliance with CFR Title 21. CFR 21 131.110 states: "(b) Vitamin addition (Optional). (1) If added, vitamin A shall be present in such quantity that each quart of the food contains not less than 2000 International Units thereof within limits of good manufacturing practices. (2) If added, vitamin D shall be present in such quantity that each quart of the food contains 400 International Units thereof within limits of good manufacturing practice."
OK now the state laws
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CFS FM Lyme Morgellons| pain fatigue depression flulike joint pain| 2/06 1,25D-49 25D-11 9/06 25D-11 2/07 25D-?| prozac20mgqd| MPstart 7/14/06 Beni40Q6 Ph1 8/06| Mod Ph2 5/07| Ph2 date|
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Dody
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Posted: Mon Mar 24th, 2008 16:44 |
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Hi Hogan,
I'm one of the low-BP folks. 90/50. 80/50, sometimes lower. I too was initially worried that my "normally" low BP might make the MP ill advised for me. After a year on the MP, I can say it is a non-issue. I just have low blood pressure. Maybe after my Th1 disease is gone or virtually gone, I'll find my BP is no longer so low, maybe not. It doesn't matter.
As I understand it, Benicar is a "piss poor" agent for lowering blood pressure. It does lower it, but only slightly, and increasing the Benicar does NOT lower the BP any further.
My MP doc, who is not deeply versed in the MP in my opinion, worried about my BP for awhile and would test it after every visit. He no longer shows any alarm and no longer tests.
Like many people on the MP, not necessarily related to BP, I experienced dizziness and light-headedness, especially in the early stages. That's why we are all cautioned to be careful when sitting up and standing up. I found that the light-headedness decreased to almost zero over time. However, I am always careful--always hold handrails on stairs, am always alert to the possibility that I might unexpectedly have to sit down fast, even on the floor, to avoid falling. Hasn't happened in a long time, but immunopathology can sneak up on you unexpectedly.
I also have a history of benign cardiac arrhytmias (supraventricular tachycardia), and have had some episodes of immune system reactions on the MP involving recurrance of those symptoms. Like other immunopathology in response to treatment on the MP, I've learned to take these in stride.
I also take very low-dose Lithium. As I understand it, Lithium tends to rob the body of Sodium. I have found that taking Benicar does increase this tendency and I need to be sure to use salt liberally.
Soon after my tachycardia was first diagnosed, we invested $50 in a blood pressure/irregular heartbeat monitor from CVS. My doctors consider this machine essentially worthless, but I have found it very helpful in identifying what's going on with my cardiovascular system. I always measure the same arm, supported, at the same angle.
There have been a few times when my light-headedness has correlated with particularly low BP (70/40). At those times, in addition to (yes!) taking an extra Benicar, I have found that drinking extra water and maybe 1/4 teaspoon of salt has both helped the light-headedness and brought the BP up a bit.
That's a long way to say I encourage you not to let your low blood pressure scare you away from the MP.
Best wishes, Dody in Massachusetts
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Lyme 99,00,07|fatigue GI arrhythmia eyes hip knees tinnitis vertigo|ProbioxQD|Lithium600QWk| Calcium Citrate300 Mag60 nitesPRN| NoIRs everywhere| zinc oxide| 3/07 Ph1| 7/07 Mod Ph2| D-25 7/07 16
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Hogan
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Posted: Mon Mar 24th, 2008 16:52 |
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Dear Dody,
Thanks for your reply. It is good to know there are others out there with BP so low who are fine with the treatment. I am still searching for a doctor who will take me on. I look forward to investigating the treatment more.
Best
Karen
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eClaire
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Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 03:44 |
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My BP started off in the same range as you mentioned and in the first few months of the MP got as low as 60/37 and I was worried.
However, I noticed that when I increased the Benicar my BP sometimes went up. Also, when I took an abx break for a week, the worst of my "BP" related symptoms went away, but my BP was still very very low, which proved to me that the symptoms were Th1 related and not BP related (just as I had been told on this site).
Now, I don't even take my BP; I just lay low when the Th1 sxs (that seem like BP sxs) get a little rough. Claire
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CFS/FMS/MCS/COPD/Hypermobility/IBS/GERD/osteop/tinnitus/neurop | Beg: 1,25D-48 25D-26.1 SED 1 Alk Phos 157 chol 299| diet mid-Oct| NoIRs| 12.3.06 Beni; Ph1 Mino 12.26.06,Restart 3.19.07 | ModPh2 6.22.07 M+C | 06.22.07 25D-13
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Hogan
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Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 16:54 |
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I would like to get the opinion of anyone who has an understanding of the body chemistry etc. Here is my situation:
I am sure that I have a Th 1 issue. The problem also is that I have a mitochrondrial dysfunction as the result of a toxic reation to the quninoline family of drugs (cipro, leviquin, etc.). This was my second reaction over a 20 year period. I didn't know I had the first one until I had a reaction while taking the drug this time. The first time was about 20 years ago and I had chronic fatigue for about 2 years after that. This time was much worse and I have basically been either house bound or bed ridden for the past year. As a result my immune system has more than one issue wrong with it. My T4 counts are at the bottom of the range as is my T4/t8 ratio. I am basically living on antibiotics because literally everytime I go off them I get pneumonia within a few days.
My D1,25 is 69 which leaves no question that I have Th 1. My D 25 was 26 last I checked. I have been avoiding all D and sun for the past month. I am slowly recovering from my prior toxic reation but I am concerned about when is the right time to try and start this process. I know that I can't stay on the antibiotics, but I'm not sure I can go off them at this point.
Has anyone else been in this situation and has the benicar helped enough to keep you off the antibiotics while you are getting started?
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Julia
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Posted: Sat Mar 29th, 2008 19:41 |
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Karen,
Your fear is not an uncommon one, that stopping previous antibiotics will cause problems. Many members have come to the MP from other antibiotic treatments. And you're right, it is absolutely essential that you stop all other antibiotics well before starting Benicar, or you might experience dangerous immunopathology.
I hope someone who has been in this situation will answer you. You can't imagine what a difference Benicar makes!
There is information about mitochondria in the tutorial on CWD bacteria.
Julia
PS I see you're posting under a slightly different name on the study site. We recommend having the same name for continuity. Please let us know if you would like Admin to change your name here, or there?
____________________
Sarcoidosis, uveitis, hypercalcaemia, osteoarthritis, eczema. MP May 04.
Leading a full life - good old MP! Julia's story
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Hogan
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 20:05 |
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| I have a question that involves one of the antibiotics. I am a slow accelorator of the liver's p450 pathway. This is why I had a severe reaction to the quninoline antibiotics. I know that at least one of the antibiotics on the MP is also an inhibitor of this pathway. Is there some way to know how much of this I can take without having the severe reaction by too much of the drug in my blood?
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Julia
Advocate
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 21:24 |
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Karen,
I'm not a medical person, but as far as I know, the only drug used on the MP that might affect the P450 pathway is one that can be kept until later, by which time the problem may well have gone away.
When you're on the MP you post regularly in a Progress Report and can mention this sort of thing to the medical moderators, who will give you individual advice for your circumstances
Julia
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Sarcoidosis, uveitis, hypercalcaemia, osteoarthritis, eczema. MP May 04.
Leading a full life - good old MP! Julia's story
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Staff
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 22:34 |
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Hogan,
Why are you "a slow accelerator of the liver's p450 pathway?" That may well be a result of the primary illness. You should re-examine that situation after you commence the Benicar and before you start the antibiotics. Chances are you will find that this problem has disappeared, as Benicar's activation of the VDR Nuclear Receptor, and its subsequent effects on PXR behavior, tend to bring the P450 enzymes back into balance.
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Hogan
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 23:22 |
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Thanks I had hoped this might be the case. I have a lot of damage caused by the quins that I'm not sure what is a function of the Th1 disease and what is a function of the toxicity. There is a lot of research out there that shows how the quins will affect the Complex 2 (and then by default complex 1) of the liver. I have been working with someone who is a toxicologist and believes the quins are like other toxins and build up in your body (assuming the p450 pathway isn't working properly) as well as bond with other toxins (for example lidocaine, procaine, etc). I'm hoping that this helps solve both problems.
I just need to get past this severe immunocompromised state so that I can get off antibiotics long enough to start the protocol. There is a lot of research out there that shows that Cipro among other quins will affect your immune system. If it is true that it builds up as well then it is possible to have a double hit on the system between the Th1 and the effects of the drugs.
I'm hoping that when I am on the benicar it will kick in the immune system enough to eliminate the multiple bacterial infections I have been fighting all winter. I also know I have multiple confirmed viral infections that have reactivated so I'm just hoping that things calm down long enough to get started.
I did a mino challenge without the benicar b/c I am currently on zithromax and the mino gave me a lot of immunopathy. So much that I stopped taking it b/c I was afraid with the high D125 I had that I might have a sever herx without any way to suppress the reaction.
Is there a path of action the body usually takes first? For example if there is a CWD bacteria and a regular brewing acute infection will the body naturally try and fight the faster growing bacteria first? My guess is no but I have no experience in immunology.
thanks
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Staff
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 00:52 |
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Acute infections, except when acquired during hospital stays, have not been a problem with the cohort. If you look at my new paper, figure 1, you can see how much the Vitamin D metabolism (and PXR) is intertwined with P450 enyme transcription.
Marshall TG: Vitamin D discovery outpaces FDA decision making. BioEssays. 2008 Feb;30(2):173-82 Online ISSN: 1521-1878 Print ISSN: 0265-9247
Preprint of FullText available from URL http://TrevorMarshall.com/BioEssays-Feb08-Marshall-Preprint.pdf
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